Is it ok??

acotrel said:
I suggest you should think about what the bike actually is. It seems to be a sixties cafe racer and is very original. It represents an era when men were men. I would really love to have it for $2,500. I get that old buzz just looking at it, I would like to get it and wring its neck. The rear sets, swept back pipes and tank are great. The bike is worth much more than the sum of its parts, and it is much better than any commando, however you would have to learn to live with it. it is now 2013, not 1963, but the bike really does it for me. A lot of these old bikes are really undervalued. As a Sunday bike it would be excellent. I'd love to ride it around our town and let the kids see it, they would flip. And so would the cops. Have look at the fifties cafe racer videos on Youtube :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvWBXHRIauA


+1 on all of that.
 
With Respect to the replies above, this chassis is clearly a wideline frame of 1960s or earlier, that has been re-registered at DVLA if the frame number tallies with the one in the log book. The original engine has been replaced with a 650 (if that is the right capacity of the engine) For some reason or another, they did not issue an age related number plate.
The only way to be 110% sure is to go and see it for yourself before submitting a bit, Beware of sellers who are not advertising what they seem.
 
Styllisimo said:
I asked for the number on the frame.. A lot of different answer, it becomes not easy :)

Is this bike in the Netherlands? If so, it appears it has been there for some time so I would have thought it should have some Dutch vehicle documentation by now?

The UK V5 is not a "proof of ownership" document.

The fact that the DVLA data posted by 79x100 has an "N" export marker I think is of some concern, as it appears to show it has not been officially exported if it has left the UK.
 
L.A.B. said:
Styllisimo said:
I asked for the number on the frame.. A lot of different answer, it becomes not easy :)

Is this bike in the Netherlands? If so, it appears it has been there for some time so I would have thought it should have some Dutch vehicle documentation by now?

The UK V5 is not a "proof of ownership" document.

The fact that the DVLA data posted by 79x100 has an "N" export marker I think is of some concern, as it appears to show it has not been officially exported if it has left the UK.

Motorcycle still has the old english papers.. I have to registrate it here still..
 
Lots of info here to digest and sort through.
First off, I don't know anything about the title, paperwork or registration process for a foreign country. I live in the United States and most places require a title in order to transfer ownership. Some states are more strict than others, but over the past 5 years or so, it's become increasingly difficult and expensive to properly title a motorcycle that doesn't already have that paperwork. I think that most guys on this forum are Commando guys, and by the 70's, I think that titles and registration information was much more common to hold on to. All the early 60's and all of the 1950's Nortons that I've come across have had issues with no title, missing title etc etc. But if there's a will, there's a way. If you love that bike, buy it, and deal with getting it properly titled and registered. If you don't want to deal with the hassle, then maybe it's just not worth it to you. Everyone is different with how much they want to put up with.

In regards to the Norton in the photos, it's definitely a 50's wideline featherbed. I believe 1959 was the last year of the wideline frame for Norton road bikes. Perhaps some were still made and sold in 1960, but after that, the slimline frame was ushered in.

In regards to the motor, I highly doubt that it's a 650. The head is definitely NOT a 650 head. But after all these years, who knows what's really inside. The bike was obviously done up as a cafe racer, so who knows what else was modified with the motor.

It's the same as anything. If you love the bike, then get it. If all the hassle sounds like too much work, then don't bother.
To me, I'd just buy because I love it. Getting the paperwork sorted out would be well worth the end result of ripping around the streets on such a cool period machine. And again, the price in my eyes is cheap. Anyone trying to build that same bike would be way over that cost. So unless the motor is blown and the frame is bent, then it's a good deal.

It's a labor of love with these bikes, and they require more work and attention than a Commando normally would. But "shit gets fixed" as they say.

Have you gone and seen the bike in person? I'd never buy a Norton without seeing it in person, unless it was being sold to me by a trusted source. But if you can go look at it and it's in good shape, then by all means, go for. I will say that the old Dominators are more difficult to deal with in regards to finding parts etc. Definitely more so than a Commando. So if this is your first introduction to Norton motorcycles, then you're definitely jumping into the deep end. But I'm all for that.

Hell, I just wish that Norton was for sale in my town.
 
Hi,
Frame or Engine No 71359 – 77284 is 1957 production. Frame or Engine No 87031 - 94335 is 1960 production.
Code 122 = 500cc 88 Code 14 = 600cc 99
Cylinder Head type correct for that year, twin carb optional extra would be pair of Monobloc 376.
DVLA in UK will want to verify chassis Number is clearly visible on frame before issuing a licence engine Number is not important.
My Slimline Frame No is 14 980**, 1961
Engine in new picture is wearing a later 1960 Head, but NOT a 650cc Head, (downdraught)
May help.
Craven.
 
wilkey113 said:
First off, I don't know anything about the title, paperwork or registration process for a foreign country. I live in the United States and most places require a title in order to transfer ownership. Some states are more strict than others, but over the past 5 years or so, it's become increasingly difficult and expensive to properly title a motorcycle that doesn't already have that paperwork.

The UK V5 isn't a title. It is the vehicle's "identity" document.
The person named on it is the "Registered Keeper" who may, or may not, be the legal owner of the vehicle, so possession of the V5 (or V5C as it is now) is not absolute proof of ownership.
 
In Australia, a computerised search can be done when buying a vehicle. Perhaps you should take the details to your authorities ? From the photo, the bike is worth the trouble. It looks like it was built in the sixties, and is the real deal cafe racer. One way of telling it's authenticity is to look for metric fasteners on it, if it comes from the UK. Also the levers should be British, not Japanese. If it was built in the sixties the fastners should be cycle thread, and the Japanese levers would not have been common until nearly 1970. A lot depends on who has played with it over the years.
 
The problem here is that the machine shown on the V5 may have been dismantled and it may not relate to this bike. It will not flag up as stolen. If the frame number has been altered to match this document (and the chance seems to be that it has, if this wideline has an 'R' letter code) then it would take a forensic examination to show the original number. I have no idea how long stolen vehicle records remain open in the UK.

If it is the same bike then the documents show it as having a BSA engine up until 1977. Therefore engine fixings could have any threads..

A close up photograph of the drive side frame gusset with paint removed and clearly showing numbers would help. I'd personally ask the Norton Owners Club for number verification and I'd try to contact either the last or previous keeper (they may still be known at the addresses shown) and ask if this bike is the one shown on the V5.

It is possible to register vehicles in the Netherlands with missing documentation but as I understand it, inspection is always required and if there is any suggestion of an altered frame number then it will be declined and black-listed.

There are any number of dodgy dealers in the UK who will punt out a mis-matched machine with incorrect documentation to an unsuspecting foreign buyer. I would be very, very careful. Why didn't the present owner register it if it is straightforward ? Does he have a receipt from the last keeper ? If so, let an English-speaker have a look at it.
 
acotrel said:
In Australia, a computerised search can be done when buying a vehicle. Perhaps you should take the details to your authorities ?

Yes but which authorities?

It appears the bike has been taken to the Netherlands from the UK. It has no Dutch documentation so it is unlikely to be on any Dutch vehicle database (if they have one?).
 
Looks like a generator engine, that would make it a 57' engine at the latest wouldn't it? And thus surely either a 500 or 600cc engine. Photos are not clear enough to count the fins, but the cylinder looks tall enough to be the 9-fin 600cc job.

If the frame has a number in the 91xxx range then it surely is not the original engine for the bike. I think some wideline roadster Nortons were sold in 1960 fitted with single cylinder engines, the Model 50 and ES2.

A neat old cafe bike for a fair price as long as the paperwork can be sorted out, it will be a shame if it can not be.
 
wilkey113 said:
$3800 is a good deal. If I had $3800 to spend and that Norton was for sale in my neck of the woods, I'd buy it, and not even haggle on the price.

I guarantee that you couldn't buy the parts on that Norton as they are for anywhere near $3800. Anyone that has a Norton like the one that Styllisimo has posted, please contact me. I'd gladly pay that price for it.

He's shown the photos, shown the title and confirmed that the motor kicks over. What else could you possibly ask for with such a cool piece of history.


You could ask for a clear history and clean paperwork or its just a pile of cool (and maybe hot) parts...... JMO, H
 
The parts alone on that bike are great. And worth good money. And more importantly, it's a cool piece of history. Bracebridge Street Nortons are far more rare, far more cool and far more valuable than the AMC stuff. And trust me, I have both for comparison purposes.
In my mind, those that simply don't like this bike will find a reason to talk it down. Someone like myself, will of course talk it up.
So again, like I said before, if you love that bike, then it's worth the trouble to get the paperwork sorted. Certainly worth the trouble to at least look into it. If you don't absolutely love it, and the thought of dealing with the paperwork has you upset, then don't buy it. Simple.
Someone with the gumption to deal with the paperwork will come along, buy it and within short order, have themselves a pretty damn nice Norton. And for a price that's about as good as it gets.
 
It's not a matter of 'gumption' or of not liking the bike in my opinion but of not being able to reconcile the documentation shown with the photographs. If they have nothing to do with each other then fine, apply for registration. I've done it in the UK and Europe and provided that one does one's homework it can be done.

However, I'd be much more worried about a 1960 Model 99 twin frame number being being on an earlier frame. Altering frame numbers is illegal and the authorities can take differing views on it. I'm actually far more concerned that any altered numbers might be the result of the crude 'ringing' of a stolen bike. I hate thieving bastards of any description, especially motorcycle thieves and I'm quite frankly shocked on a Norton enthusiast's forum to find that a fair proportion would ignore the possibility, buy it anyway and then sort out the paperwork.

If the frame has good clear honest factory numbers then I'd buy it. If not then regardless of how much I might fancy posing down the caff on it, I'd leave it alone. It could be any of our bikes next.
 
I'd like to add that I'm most certainly not proposing that anyone buy or sell a stolen motorcycle. I certainly wouldn't buy one or sell one. So I'd definitely like to be clear on that.
I'm simply answering the enquiries of the original poster who seems to be on the fence about buying this Norton. All I'd suggest is that it's worth looking into further. If the frame numbers don't match the motor, if the frame or motor numbers don't seem to match what year, and model the bike should be, then of course all of this is in question. I just don't find it to be very rare that a bike of this age, that's obviously been off the road for several decades, might also be missing paperwork. Who knows. Bottom line, I'm suggesting that the interested party get more photos. Detailed photos. Frame numbers, engine numbers, close up photos of everything. Or better yet, go have a look in person and see what the real story is.
If it's too good to be true, than so be it.

Rest assured that I have no interest in looking cool "posing down the caff" as suggested. I just happen to be an enthusiast of the early Bracebridge Street featherbed Dominators. Especially ones that have some nice looking period bits. So for me, it'd be worth the extra bit of homework and looking into. I'd drive to meet the seller and have a look myself. And than base my decision on the facts at hand, rather than fuzzy photos and incomplete information.

Often times this forum seems to be more of a "Commando" forum rather than a "Norton" forum. And anything other than a Commando with a Corbin gunfighter seat seems to get frowned upon.
So it's just nice to see something a bit different, something produced at the works factory.
 
beng said:
Looks like a generator engine, that would make it a 57' engine at the latest wouldn't it? And thus surely either a 500 or 600cc engine. Photos are not clear enough to count the fins, but the cylinder looks tall enough to be the 9-fin 600cc job.

If the frame has a number in the 91xxx range then it surely is not the original engine for the bike. I think some wideline roadster Nortons were sold in 1960 fitted with single cylinder engines, the Model 50 and ES2.

A neat old cafe bike for a fair price as long as the paperwork can be sorted out, it will be a shame if it can not be.
Hi,
Thanks Beng, error corrected, NOC backs up your thoughts on wideline singles.
Models ES 2 and 50 used wideline frames in 1959 & 1960.
Regards Craven.
 
Thanks aagain for all the info! I preciate it! Still nog picture of the other numbers, i will let you know! (Its a long way to the seller so some pictures first are welcome offcourse)
 
Further to my earlier answer, Blue logbook is out of date and no longer acceptable in the UK as is the New blue log book also not valid.
DVLA only issue the red logbook now, which can be changed in the UK FOC-if you have the log book only.
HTH.
 
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