Indicator Cancel

There is yet another aftermarket self canceller called SDS, made in the EU.
It's quite expensive, about $200 cdn. As near as I can figure, it works on a combination of timing and accelerometers. People seem thrilled with it just after initial install, but after listening to a long term review it seems to have a serious flaw.
If the bike makes a very gentle turn, for example at a Y, it often does not cancel on completing the turn. If the lean amount is not sufficient the sensors don't pick it up.
Then eventually the signals time out, but in the interim bad things could occur.
I think I'll stay with the SD unit for future installs. It has always done exactly what it is supposed to, no surprises. For a Y turn like that, a quick press and seven flashes, which is perfect.

Glen

I did look into this system. Lots of reviews online but it is pricey!
I decided that it was probably best not to fit my Commando with anything cleverer than the rider

worntorn said:

I don't see a need for relays. Relays are great for taking high current draw away from switchgear and getting good current flow to high draw things like old style headlights. ( not LED)

Even incandescent indicators draw very low current. Led indicators draw next to nothing. So little that some flashers do not recognize the current and won't flash without some added electrical components.
The SD unit doesn't have that problem.


The Signal Dynamics unit has an epoxy case, so it will be isolated from the bike.
As long as everything in the indicator circuit is isolated from the bike, then that circuit could be wired up with polarity as shown on the Signal Dynamics diagram.
That's my take on the SD info as posted by BSA boss.

Glen

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Glen,
I follow what you are saying but relays help take the combined load off of the ignition switch and I believe the kill switch carries a bigger load than necessary.
Pete

Sorry should have explained more clearly. I was referring to the use of relays as mentioned for the self cancelling circuits. This load is approximately 250 milliamperes on my bike ( leds) Can't see a need for relays there, even for a bike with incandescent indicators, which might draw an amp or two, depending on type.

Glen

worntorn said:

I don't see a need for relays. Relays are great for taking high current draw away from switchgear and getting good current flow to high draw things like old style headlights. ( not LED)

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And horns.

worntorn said:

Sorry should have explained more clearly. I was referring to the use of relays as mentioned for the self cancelling circuits. This load is approximately 250 milliamperes on my bike ( leds) Can't see a need for relays there, even for a bike with incandescent indicators, which might draw an amp or two, depending on type.

Glen

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Understood.
Sometimes relays can be used when a device is negative earth and applied to a positive earth system. I.E. I installed an alarm on my bike. It required positive battery voltage when the ignition switch was turned on. I used a relay to accomplish this.
I‘m pretty sure with a little creative thinking a negative earth signal canceling device can be made to work on a positive earth system.
Pete

Deets55 said:

Understood.
Sometimes relays can be used when a device is negative earth and applied to a positive earth system. I.E. I installed an alarm on my bike. It required positive battery voltage when the ignition switch was turned on. I used a relay to accomplish this.
I‘m pretty sure with a little creative thinking a negative earth signal canceling device can be made to work on a positive earth system.
Pete

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still following this thread. I like the overall idea of the cancelling device.

I agree with the above - that was the thought behind my post/circuit diagram. not using relays to control current, but to ISOLATE the (negative ground) timing device from a (positive ground) bike. can't see how that 2-wire, Mo-Stop device can be wired into, in my case, a factory, positive ground, circuit - unless this is one of those, "you can't see the forest for the trees" things. again, i'm no expert, and my electronic theory goes back to vacuum tubes and punch cards, and I really never kept up with the technology, but it seems to me, the output of the Mo-Stop would still be at a +V potential. if it was used to control the factory wired flasher, which has -V input potential - just can't see how this would work. I have no idea what's inside the device, but i'd guess it some sort of integrated circuit - MAYBE something as simple as a 555 timing device and a couple transistors - whatever it is, it sounds like it's +/- voltage sensitive. IF anybody has successfully and directly, wired in the 2-wire Mo-Stop device in their +V ground bike, PLEASE provide a sketch or something on how you did this, because I must be dense - I can't see how this would work. this is starting to make my brain hurt -

My mo-stop was supposed to be delivered today, but no luck so far.
The mo-stop doesn’t have an earthed case just two wires, so positive earth should be ok...
My plan was to remove the lucas flasher unit and connect the red wire of the mo-stop to the light green and brown wire that heads to the lamps then to the positive ground. And connect the black wire of the mo-stop to the commando white wires that go to the negative on the battery. By my thinking, the mo-stop should then have the correct polarity. I will put a fuse in-line with the mo-stop as per the instructions, but was thinking that a 7.5 amp fuse should be sufficient.

I will post an update after I have installed it - meanwhile if anyone more electrically expert than me (that’s probably everyone) thinks I have it wrong, please let me know!

SteveC said:

I will post an update after I have installed it - meanwhile if anyone more electrically expert than me (that’s probably everyone) thinks I have it wrong, please let me know!

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I expect that since it's a 2 wire device that your assumptions are correct. Surely, keep us informed.

For the Signal Dynamics unit, the body is epoxy so it is isolated when mounted. As far as the circuitry side goes, my thought would be the same as the Signal Dynamics rep- if frame is used for ground then the unit won't work on a positive earth machine. If the lights are isolated from the frame, then just hook them up to the SD unit in negative ground mode, as shown on the SD schematic, no relays required.

Glen

SteveC/maylar - as long as there isn't anything internal to the device that's polarity sensitive, your assumptions are correct, however (no flames), not sure i'd make that assumption. I was working on a radar display circuit years ago, and accidently soldered in a polarized cap in bass-ackards. everything worked fine for a few minutes, then things went haywire. seems like it took forever to trouble shoot that problem. again, have no idea what's inside the Mo-Stop device, but from the looks of it and it's size, i'd guess it's some sort of integrated circuit, and my guess, polarity sensitive. don't think it's as simple as wiring the Mo-Stop's red wire to a negative potential. again, by no means an expert and rust theory - just throwing out my 2-cents, FWIW. peace.

SteveC - keep us informed.

joe czech said:

don't think it's as simple as wiring the Mo-Stop's red wire to a negative potential.

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Of course it's polarity sensitive. The red wire will need to be positive - which means it connects to the blinker switch feed. Black wire connects to the negative power.... hopefully.

If it's a 2 wire set up without the body of the unit being grounded, I can't see how ground would matter at all since there's only 2 choices for current flow direction without a grounding point to conduct current in another way, so my guess is that just polarity is the only consideration.

Maybe Ludwig will chime in whether his bike is positive ground and if he did any special wiring to his mo.stop

There are new fangled LED bar end blinkers which are quite unobtrusive and as far away from the center line as it's possible to get. They are also near your mirrors so the chance of spotting you've left them on is much greater I would say. Obviously if you drop your bike they are going to suffer, but I think the more expensive brands such as Rizoma are pretty strong.

(also posted the same on the other thread about indicators).

worntorn said:

For the Signal Dynamics unit, the body is epoxy so it is isolated when mounted. As far as the circuitry side goes, my thought would be the same as the Signal Dynamics rep- if frame is used for ground then the unit won't work on a positive earth machine. If the lights are isolated from the frame, then just hook them up to the SD unit in negative ground mode, as shown on the SD schematic, no relays required.

Glen

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agree - the only issue I can see is the front indicators use the headlight bucket as the return path. you would have to isolate the fronts and provide a separate return.

maylar said:

Of course it's polarity sensitive. The red wire will need to be positive - which means it connects to the blinker switch feed. Black wire connects to the negative power.... hopefully.

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question - if connecting the red wire to +12V, wouldn't the output or black wire still be at a "positive" potential in relation the actual -12V ground? since it's a two-wire device, installed in series, and without a separate ground, and basically a floating device, it's only a one way operation. i'm thinking, the output of the Mo-Stop is still at a +V potential - by connecting it to the flasher (input) which is (keyed) -12V (in a positive ground bike), thus unless i'm missing something, a direct short. not claiming I know anything here, just posing, curious, questions.

joe czech said:

question - if connecting the red wire to +12V, wouldn't the output or black wire still be at a "positive" potential in relation the actual -12V ground?

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Yes.

since it's a two-wire device, installed in series, and without a separate ground, and basically a floating device, it's only a one way operation. i'm thinking, the output of the Mo-Stop is still at a +V potential - by connecting it to the flasher (input) which is (keyed) -12V (in a positive ground bike), thus unless i'm missing something, a direct short. not claiming I know anything here, just posing, curious, questions.

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The red wire needs to go to the most positive source, which on a + earth bike would be the grounded blinkers. The black wire needs to go to the most negative source, which is the battery supply.

sorry, still confused - can't see by flipping the polarity of the Mo-Stop, it's a plug and play device. still think the internals are polarity sensitive. again, if someone's successfully installed this please post some sort of schematic diagram.

SteveC - i'm counting on you....

I don't think there's any doubt that the internals are polarity sensitive, but current flow direction is the only consideration (I suspect) because there is no grounding on the mo.stop unit, so it doesn't have a ground, nor is it sensitive to the electrical system's grounding because it is NOT grounded if it's a 2 wire component. It's just an ungrounded component that has a current flow polarity.... in other words it only works with the current flowing in the correct direction. Because it's not grounded, I don't think there are any other considerations except current flow direction....

And I'll find out on friday sometime.

Maybe check with Motogadget as BSA boss did with Signal Dynamics.
As a parallel Someone just emailed me to say stop fussing and just hook up my no longer available Positive ground Podtronics DC reg to a newly rebuilt negative ground Lucas dynamo.
What could go wrong?
I responded by asking what colour the smoke should be?

Glen

Two things. First I try to use my indicators every chance I get even if there are no vehicles around. This increases the muscle memory so you don't even know you are turning them off. And secondly, I want to get a way brighter indicator light in the headlight.