How about a Desmo Norton?

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Rohan said:
Bernhard said:
Although I have never owned a Ducati, I bow to your superior knowledge on the up keep of these engines, however, back when I was a teenager, I enrolled at the Kirby/ Camp racing school at Brands Hatch when they were the only motorcycle racing school in the UK at that time, and got to ride at first, a non- Desmo 250 and then a Desmo 250, so I could tell the difference between the two. The Desmo 250 was streets faster, would rev quicker and higher, so was a much superior bike and I would have loved one at the time, but I just couldn’t afford one, which was a blessing in disguise as they require a strip down around every 2,000 miles to replace the main bearings, ( Remember this was a race designed engine!) the bevel drive bearing collapses, taking the top bevel with it (

Just for the record, its the big end bearing that was a little fragile in the Duc singles and early v-twins, not the main bearings.
They were apparently fine for the 250 and 175 singles, but when stretched to 350 and 450 desmos, could have a fairly short service life - although 2000 miles sounds rather short even then. They were also a roller bearing bigend, and Duc went to some lengths to specify what oil was suitable for them - multigrade 20w/50 apparently was not on the list of suitable oils. The early desmo 750 v-twins were also a little hard on their big end bearing, and again Duc recommended only some specific oils. Later designs employed a more robust bearing all around. Dunno about that race designed bit, Duc singles started out from fairly modest little ohc singles, and the desmo bit was added to some quite later....
But we diverge, slightly, as Aco like to point out !

As anyone who has raced these bikes in their highly tuned form will tell you the engines can be a bit fragile even with the belts drive versions used in the WSB.
Apart from a Ducati meeting, I wonder where all the old single cylinder Dukes are these days :?:
So, you have never head of the bevel drive main bearing disintegrating allowing the crank to fall down, allowing the top bevel to fall and screwing up the top bevel drive gears :?:
 
Bernhard said:
Apart from a Ducati meeting, I wonder where all the old single cylinder Dukes are these days :?:

In Australia!

In this part of the world, many road Ducati singles stay in their garages and their owners prefer to talk about them than ride them, apart from the occasional rally.
 
Rohan said:
Bernhard said:
strange.........the Honda RC 146 125cc FIVE cylinder reputedly revved to 22,000 rpm :!: :!:

No quite so difficult to do when the engine is only a tiddler, and everything is tiny - what would the valves weigh ?!
(Although it was a bit of an achievement at the time, the harmonics of high revving engines being about unknown).
Bit trickier when the engine is a full blown 1000cc, and the valves are man sized....
The article says the valves were less than 10 g each. Compare this to the 10X heavier Norton valve at ~ 67 g. The mechanic also commented "The valves looked more like carpenters’ nails than poppet valves from a motorcycle engine."
 
WZ507 said:
Rohan said:
Bernhard said:
strange.........the Honda RC 146 125cc FIVE cylinder reputedly revved to 22,000 rpm :!: :!:

No quite so difficult to do when the engine is only a tiddler, and everything is tiny - what would the valves weigh ?!
(Although it was a bit of an achievement at the time, the harmonics of high revving engines being about unknown).
Bit trickier when the engine is a full blown 1000cc, and the valves are man sized....
The article says the valves were less than 10 g each. Compare this to the 10X heavier Norton valve at ~ 67 g. The mechanic also commented "The valves looked more like carpenters’ nails than poppet valves from a motorcycle engine."
I remember reading about a French company building a replica of one of those Hondas and the fella said that they had a hard time getting the metallurgy and tolerances right, even with today's modern techniques and equipment.
 
john robert bould said:
I think a "french Company" and Honda ...there may be a slight difference in cash availability :lol:

Very true John, but the point of the remark is that the French company concerned is an ultra modern outfit with F1 involvement etc, yet they struggled to copy (never mind design, just to copy) something made over 40 years earlier!

They did succeed, and the 'replicas' are awesome, don't get your hopes up though, they only made a small batch, and they all sold, asking price was a quarter of a million pounds each if I recall correctly.

And no, I didn't buy one!
 
Bernhard said:
So, you have never head of the bevel drive main bearing disintegrating allowing the crank to fall down, allowing the top bevel to fall and screwing up the top bevel drive gears :?:

Manxes were famous for the variety of ways they were capable of 'not proceeding',
and stripping teeth off their bevel drive arrangements was just one of them, no other failures needed.....

I've seen quite a lot of little Duc bevel singles out in Spain, of all places.
Weren't they licence built there, or some strange arrangement ?
 
I think a "french Company" and Honda ...there may be a slight difference in cash availability :lol:

You can buy those hotrod CBR250 out of the showroom with warranty, no quarter of a million quid required. !
4 cylinder 4 valves per cylinder rocketships, although they are redlined at under 20k ?
Hereabouts they are sold as 'learner bikes' !
 
Alas no desmo for Norton in foreseeable future so ask if current push rod control is still a limiting factor compared to what rest of the engine can take?
 
Time has shown that Commando engines are about nicely at or near the limit at less than 7000 rpms,
so without a redesign of everything they are perhaps fine as they are.

BTW, what are the new 961 engines redlined at ?
With all thos bearings in that completely redesigned bottom end, maybe they are just crying out for pushrod desmo system ??
 
Ugh IIRC Dances had a 9 grand racer he raced joyfully and my P!!'s builder Pagent Cycle in Florida nail polish marked tack at 9,000 which I joyfully used now and then but so explosive in thrust it wasn't practical nor possible to use or stand routinely. So I remain mystified how old school got away with what's taboo now. If ya ever been next to a serious potent engine - regardless of its size its response will startle you and involuntarily step you away from such alarming VIOLENCE. So I'm just wondering how much available push rod drives actually hinder Norton power. JMS BSA kit and Ludwig's skeletal factory lifters are the trickest out there but don't know if significant power gains vs just less wear tear peace of mind and maybe quicker response. I'll have to talk comnoz into a audio specturm analyizer to maybe detect rpm related limits to mark tach before its destructive. Too often everything seems fine right up till a threshold crossed.

How about a Desmo Norton?
 
This was all very interesting ... I think if you want Desmo ... buy a Ducati ... if you want the best Brit bike buy a Norton Commando ... both make me very happy ... Norton of course is way easier to work on ... both perform as expected and both sound nice ...
Craig
 
Funny story, at a vintage outing ,a guy with a old 30's Sunbeam had done some pre delivery checks for D&K motor cycles.
Not having any bikes himself other than prewar stuff,he was given a 250 cbr, he returned after a run out...saying "these ain't much better than prewar stuff, it wont rev above 2000" then he was told that ain't 2000 on the counter ,that's 20.000 !


Rohan said:
I think a "french Company" and Honda ...there may be a slight difference in cash availability :lol:

You can buy those hotrod CBR250 out of the showroom with warranty, no quarter of a million quid required. !
4 cylinder 4 valves per cylinder rocketships, although they are redlined at under 20k ?
Hereabouts they are sold as 'learner bikes' !
 
WZ507 said:
Rohan said:
Bernhard said:
strange.........the Honda RC 146 125cc FIVE cylinder reputedly revved to 22,000 rpm :!: :!:

No quite so difficult to do when the engine is only a tiddler, and everything is tiny - what would the valves weigh ?!
(Although it was a bit of an achievement at the time, the harmonics of high revving engines being about unknown).
Bit trickier when the engine is a full blown 1000cc, and the valves are man sized....
The article says the valves were less than 10 g each. Compare this to the 10X heavier Norton valve at ~ 67 g. The mechanic also commented "The valves looked more like carpenters’ nails than poppet valves from a motorcycle engine."

You could always make a 30 cylinder and retain the same valve weight as the 5 cylinder 125, but you might need to become a watch maker to strip your engine and reassemble it :!: :(
 
hobot said:
Ugh IIRC Dances had a 9 grand racer he raced joyfully and my P!!'s builder Pagent Cycle in Florida nail polish marked tack at 9,000 which I joyfully used now and then but so explosive in thrust it wasn't practical nor possible to use or stand routinely. So I remain mystified how old school got away with what's taboo now. If ya ever been next to a serious potent engine - regardless of its size its response will startle you and involuntarily step you away from such alarming VIOLENCE. So I'm just wondering how much available push rod drives actually hinder Norton power. JMS BSA kit and Ludwig's skeletal factory lifters are the trickest out there but don't know if significant power gains vs just less wear tear peace of mind and maybe quicker response. I'll have to talk comnoz into a audio specturm analyizer to maybe detect rpm related limits to mark tach before its destructive. Too often everything seems fine right up till a threshold crossed.


hobot,the opening of the exhaust valve in a pushrod engine presents a problem because the system has to overcome the cylinder pressure before the valve will open. This pressure is considerable, and in a high performance engine, especially with an early opening exhaust, opening the exhaust valve can only be done accompanied by some buckling of the pushrod, which means the opening of the valve is delayed by some degrees. The situation may be further compounded by the natural lateral frequency of the pushrod happenning to coincide with that of the valve springs.
Taking care of these issues is possible, but hardly likely by those who are mixing and matching parts to get a boost in performance.
The desmo system takes care of the opening delay, but the force required to open the valve can cause some stress of the opening rocker.
The earlier comments also apply to the pushrod driven intake valve, but the high cylinder pressure is not present and the pushrod buckling is therefore much reduced.
 
Potts Desmo

In Geoff Duke’s preview to the 1958 season, he wrote the following:
“With rumour upon rumour circulating about the Joe Potts’ stable, and all sorts of items, from the 270 lb “500s” to 90mm bores and desmodromic valve gears being accepted facts, one can hardly discount Bob McIntyre’s chances.”

''Ross Haygarth: My Dearden Manx had the factory Desmo engine fitted for practice in the S100 in 1959, Terry Shepherd rode one too, It revved 1000rpm more than a standard 350 engine."


How about a Desmo Norton?


How about a Desmo Norton?


How about a Desmo Norton?


How about a Desmo Norton?



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HI,
! have Both a Norton & a Ducati St3.
Just this week I did the ~ 24,00 miles valve check / Adjustment, on the duck.
What impresses me is how small the valve gear is compared to the Norton. The valve shims ( Opener & Closer ) are about the size of keepers on the Norton.
The valve stems are 7 mm. And there is not much else to add weight to the valve.
Once I discovered a few tricks like the Vertical right intake valve opening rocker needs to be moved over before you can move the vertical exhaust valve opening rocker over to remove the opener shim. ( There are spring metal clips that keep the rockers over the valves that are also a challenge).
The Valve Check & Adjustment is quite easy.

Another important thing to know is that the opener gap is measured with minimum drag on the feeler gage.

Any ways, The desmo valve train is quite a piece of work. And I found it fun to work on !
Time to fire up the Norton.

Bruce Mac Gregor
 
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