How about a Desmo Norton?

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I could push open the valves on my dommie, just.
Does that mean we can ignore it for it too ?

Someone suggested 4 or 5 hp to drive the valve gear.
But surely that depends on the strength of the springs, the number of valves, and the size of the valves
(not necessarily in that order).

We notice that the (factory) Desmo Manxs never raced,
does that mean they never perfected it,
or the gains were not to be found ??
 
john robert bould said:
This statement of valve spring loss, is not correct . for every action there is an equal re-action . If a valve requires 100 lb to compress it,the spring acts in the opposite direction with 100lb.. ? If this was not true then i need the figures.

You are referring to Newton's laws of motion, for every force there is an equal and opposite reaction (force). Which was thought of a long time before the internal combustion engine was invented :!: :!: :!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion
 
daveh said:
Actually, the production Ducati Desmo 250, 350 and 450 singles came standard with quite strong hairpin valve springs. On mine, I can just press them down with my fingers to release the spring retainer. The closing rockers can be modified to take much lighter 'helper' springs as fitted to the V twins from the 70s to the 90s and onwards. This is what I have done (with thanks to forum member GRM 450). A long time ago, I ran the motor without any springs and it could be started. If the closing rocker clearances are too large, then it might be tricky to start. Once started, gas pressure slaps the valves back fully onto their seats.
My experience of desmos is that the valve clearances in the old 70s engines need very frequent adjustment, and because of cam grinding inaccuracies, it is better to remove the heads to set the clearances to avoid rocker/cam binding. It is a lot of bother for very little if any practical return. The top Ducati tuners have proved that the valve spring engines are just as effective as the desmos and much less hassle. The modern desmo Ducatis are built to much closer tolerances and from better materials, resulting in much longer service intervals without having to remove the heads to set the valve clearances. They too have light 'helper' return springs. The engine efficiency arguments mentioned above are interesting, but equally, Ducati use their desmo system as a marketing tool to very good effect because they are still the only production machines using the system, so it has given them an aura of exotic mystique.
The desmo system had another advantage back in the day, when brakes were poor and the revs would soar on the overrun using engine braking, there was no risk of valve tangling.Ohv pushrod owners, consider yourselves lucky you don't have to maintain a desmo Ducati. It's a real luxury to be able to whip off the valve covers, slacken the lock nut and turn the adjuster against the feeler gauge. Job done, and then you are back on the road again, which is what it is all about. :D

Although I have never owned a Ducati, I bow to your superior knowledge on the up keep of these engines, however, back when I was a teenager, I enrolled at the Kirby/ Camp racing school at Brands Hatch when they were the only motorcycle racing school in the UK at that time, and got to ride at first, a non- Desmo 250 and then a Desmo 250, so I could tell the difference between the two. The Desmo 250 was streets faster, would rev quicker and higher, so was a much superior bike and I would have loved one at the time, but I just couldn’t afford one, which was a blessing in disguise as they require a strip down around every 2,000 miles to replace the main bearings, ( Remember this was a race designed engine!) the bevel drive bearing collapses, taking the top bevel with it :!: :shock: :(
 
Rohan said:
I could push open the valves on my dommie, just.
Does that mean we can ignore it for it too ?

You actually don't have to ignore anything but IMHO it is plain obvious that a stiffer spring and more load on the cam lobe equals in more torque to turn the cam. A part of this torque is regained on the downward slope of the cam lobe when the spring "helps" to camtrain but all friction losses are gone.

Someone suggested 4 or 5 hp to drive the valve gear.
But surely that depends on the strength of the springs, the number of valves, and the size of the valves
(not necessarily in that order).

It actually depends on far more: The number, size and details of the bearings, the intermediate stuff (rockers, pushrods, tappets, whatever), the torsional stiffness and inertia of the cam, the revs, the oil - everything that has an influence on the friction. There is a certain loss in the gear from the crank to the cam and then there are certain losses on each and every contact point of the whole system.

We notice that the (factory) Desmo Manxs never raced,
does that mean they never perfected it,
or the gains were not to be found ??

The problem in such a situation usually is that a radical design change seldomly offers a benefit at the very beginning but basically places you at the bottom of a learning cuve - and then the doubters inevitably will try to steer back to "known ground". BTDTNS.


Tim
 
Tintin said:
A part of this torque is regained on the downward slope of the cam lobe when the spring "helps" to camtrain......

Not exactly, as rpm increases this regain of torque diminishes as the valve spring is now burdened providing a motivating force to overcome inertial forces to accelerate the valve and valve train closed.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Tintin said:
A part of this torque is regained on the downward slope of the cam lobe when the spring "helps" to camtrain......

Not exactly, as rpm increases this regain of torque diminishes as the valve spring is now burdened providing a motivating force to overcome inertial forces to accelerate the valve and valve train closed.

For higher rpm you're right. However I'd suggest to keep this not too complicated (otherwise I'll throw in pneumatic springs! :mrgreen: ). The dominant loss is friction IMHO.


Tim
 
Tim .
You are correct, putting friction to one side..the effort to turn a valve to top center equals the closing resistance when it close's . If not where is the loss and how is it lost? If this not correct perpetual motion is possible.



Tintin said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Tintin said:
A part of this torque is regained on the downward slope of the cam lobe when the spring "helps" to camtrain......

Not exactly, as rpm increases this regain of torque diminishes as the valve spring is now burdened providing a motivating force to overcome inertial forces to accelerate the valve and valve train closed.

For higher rpm you're right. However I'd suggest to keep this not too complicated (otherwise I'll throw in pneumatic springs! :mrgreen: ). The dominant loss is friction IMHO.


Tim
 
Conventional DOHC 4 valve per cylinder might be better than desmodromics. I wonder how a Suzuki SEAR motor would go in a Norton ?
 
john robert bould said:
Tim .
You are correct, putting friction to one side..the effort to turn a valve to top center equals the closing resistance when it close's . If not where is the loss and how is it lost? If this not correct perpetual motion is possible.
Inertial loads are near zero at near zero rpm yet they are substantial at high rpm, that is why substantial valve springs are used. At very high rpm (at valve float) much of the spring force is used to return the valve to the seat so little to no spring force available recover work/energy through the back side of the cam - simple.

I see Tintin's wisdom in suggesting keeping this "not too complicated".
 
Tintin said:
For higher rpm you're right. However I'd suggest to keep this not too complicated (otherwise I'll throw in pneumatic springs! :mrgreen: ). The dominant loss is friction IMHO.

Tim

I tend to agree that over most of the normal operating rpm range that friction dominates.

At the risk of getting too far off topic, a questions:

With pneumatic valves on F1 engines do they actively up the air (spring) pressure as the rpm incrases or are they set to a certain single pressure across the rpm range?
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
With pneumatic valves on F1 engines do they actively up the air (spring) pressure as the rpm incrases or are they set to a certain single pressure across the rpm range?

That depends on the engine and the year. :wink:

Most engines I know of are set to a static pressure and the system is pressurized by a large bottle in order to control pressure increase during valve lift. Do you remember Kubicas stunt in Montreal 2007? Have a look at this picture - the pressure bottle (at least I'm pretty sure it is) is visible just in front of the yellow airbox winglet (and the fact how it dangled around in this crash caused a rule change unsurprisingly). There were also engine which ran small cam-driven compressors for the system - these systems where not 100% air-tight so the mean pressure dropped during the race. BMW had to re-pressurize the system during the race due to too much leakage in 2007 e.g. which meant a relatively long pit-stop at the end of the race.

To get slightly on-topic again: I hope nobody wants to convert a Norton to pneumatic springs by now ..... :mrgreen:

Tim
 
Tintin said:
To get slightly on-topic again: I hope nobody wants to convert a Norton to pneumatic springs by now

If it could reliably run 19,000 rpms, like the MotoGP bikes do,
then it would probably be a hoot !!

That 'reliable' may be a bit of a problem though....
 
Naw pneumatics is so passe but solenoids are all the rage. I've freaked on Combat valve float power lost and recognize it here

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwVxHhkGgTk[/video]
[video][/video]

Slo mo
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM0rY[/video]

electro mo
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpOtW1AVlR4[/video]
 
Tintin said:
Why only 19k?

Because thats what the regulations stipulated.
No idea how they settled on those particular rpms.

Some of the (MotoGP) engines could reportedly rev well beyond that.
 
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