"Goof-proof" Anti-Drain Valve (ironjohns)

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I was told by Iron John that the ball and spring "automatic" anti-sumping valve passed 20% LESS oil than just tubing in the same amount of time. He ran the pump with a drill sucking oil from a container with and without the automatic valve and timed it for one minute, then measured how much oil had been pumped. It is clear that the automatic valve is a restriction and it could be worse at low speeds. A manual ball valve with a switch is a much better solution, no restriction and it has to be opened for the bike to start.
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ok, now you have me newly concerned about this 20% less oil being pumped with a spring valve

it sounds ominous, scary, possibly engine damaging

but, it there any study, data, anything that shows that 20% less flow is indeed a matter of proven concern?

I have run my Commando for almost three years now with spring CNW valve, hour after hour in SW desert heat, and I have no indication that I am restricting, depriving, hurting my motor in any way

comments?
 
LIkely valve flow restriction is a non issue but in rare conditions of cold condition with 20-50 wt summer grade oil or rare event of sticking ball, but has happened enough to have split Norton world on whether anti-sump is best thing since sliced bread or worse thing since discovering we were naked in Garden of Eden.
 
Norton-Villier said:
SGOUD2 said:
I just ordered a manual "Anti Drain Valve" from Ironjohns with an electrical cut off. My question is, where is it best to connect those switch wires? Would the coils ground be a good choice?
Commando 850 1973, Pos Gr, Boyer analog, Podronic.

Thanks
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Anyone have any opinions on this ? Phil
Click to expand...


Ironjohn told me to connect the switch on the supply side (-) of the coils for a Pos Gr Norton.
 
On my early bike, I have 2 feed wires coming off the ignition switch, one to the ignition (coils or Pazon) and the other to the rear lights. I chose to break the ignition with the switch. I'm not sure how the later ones are wired, but I would suspect the ignition circuit would be a big winner.

That's why I remove the fuse when it's parked for a while, there are still a lot of things connected to the battery even if the ignition switch is off.

Dave
69S
 
gtiller said:
It would be great to see CNW make one of these out of billet... I know of a few people on this board (including me) that would form an orderly queue.

C'mon, how about it guys? :wink:
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Hey,

Actually....some things are being discussed in regards to what it will take to make a controlled valve. A lot of people are asking so there will be something. Considering the parts currently being developed the valve wont be available until next summer.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
 
Actually....some things are being discussed in regards to what it will take to make a controlled valve. A lot of people are asking so there will be something. Considering the parts currently being developed the valve wont be available until next summer.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works[/quote]

That will be interesting to see, I thought it would be a relatively easy part to manufacture, its kind of like a hobbs switch only positional.
Figured it would be fairly straightforward to source the parts to make one myself, After all, one can find brass valves relatively easily, But in my research I found that electrical switch isnt as easily sourced as one might think.

I would be interested to see more info on this,, are you talking a on-off ball valve? or are you talking an On-off valve with the micro switch or electrical cut out similar to the Iron johns part being made?

or...... are you looking at being an exclusive distributor of Iron johns parts and commishioning him to make them?

and will they be availible in multiple configurations or just C-do versions?

seems to be a lot of interest, I 'm sure people would like to know, and finally, for Brit bike cheap bastards,,,ooops, I MEANT Economy orientated 2 wheeled conveyance consumers,, can you comment on where you expect to be on these for a price point approximately?


Maybe EMGO will be carrying them in 6 months and the point is moot,

I installed inline check valves from Walridge motors many years ago in a number of custom Nortons and customer bikes when i was doing the shop thing, never had any problems and they had a convincing sales pitch about their relability. I also always installed a liquid filled oil gauge and a seperate red idiot light hooked to a chevy pressure warning switch, C-Dos its was at 5psi and Triumphs were at 7psi for the triggers, it was a good visual aide for riders to properlly warm their bikes and get the oil flowing rather than going full tilt on a cold engine. And yes, wet sumped engines will usually puke out the drive side main seal if started with a full crankcase. People that dismiss that problem either dont ride much or just have been blessed with divine luck and providence
 
worntorn said:
I'm making some of these this week, along the lines of the one in the photo. Will post a photo and parts info once they are done. That way if you are like me and need a bunch of these things, you can make your own.
Glen
Click to expand...

Ill be really interested to see these pictures IF & WHEN you get around to posting them.

is there an ETA or an update?

im willing to say I thought they were a bit on the expensive side, and figured I could source the components to make them myself. After a bit of research, It is not so easy to do. I can source fittings and brass valves without difficulty,,,, heck Enco, Grainger, McMaster-Carr and any number of industrial suppliers can offer that lot,,, plus more specialized suppliers as well.

But that Micro-electrical switch is a bit of specialized kit there laddie, not so easy to source. My wife works in a machine shop that specializes in manufacturing high volume and specialized parts and components, customers such as FLUKE,Leopold & Stevens, Leatherman, Crimson Trace,Bench Made, DeWalt, .. weapons manufacturers,, the electronics trade, Aerospace. she looked at them and said good luck, not so easy. It can be done but im thinking the average fettler aint got a hope in hell,

So,,, got an ETA on these? What kind of materials? Billet? Brass? Stainless?, 4140? Inconel? 17-4? T-6?

plating? polished? heat treat? perhaps some specialized coatings or surface treatments?

Dress them up a bit with fins or ribbed for pleasure? Maybe you can get with Hobot and get some feedback on magnets or add filter capabilitys?

(Frantz filters anybody? :lol: )


and finally, the money shot. where do you expect to be in price point per unit out the door? How many configurations?
warranty? Service and replacement parts?
 
Jeandr said:
I was told by Iron John that the ball and spring "automatic" anti-sumping valve passed 20% LESS oil than just tubing in the same amount of time.
Click to expand...

The effects and parameters involved here are highly non-linear and the harmful effect of any obstruction in front of the feed pump will increase exponentially with the flow rate. It is therefore far worse at high speeds when the engine needs high oil flows. Plus the cavitation problem because of the absolute pressure directly in front if the pump.

I said it before and I'll say it again: An check valve upstream of a pump is very bad engineering practise. Very, very, very bad. It is very good practise to feed into the pump from a rather large reservoir and the original Norton setup is already suboptimal.


Tim
 
I have often thought of simply incorporating one of these into the sump drain.
Having 1972, it would be straight forward.

Self explanatory, I'm sure.

"Goof-proof" Anti-Drain Valve (ironjohns)
 
Airplanes have quick drains. Ive often though about fitting one but
the problem with a bike is they are somewhat vulnerable.
The thought of some wise guy flicking it open isnt comforting either.
 
Onder said:
Airplanes have quick drains. Ive often though about fitting one but
the problem with a bike is they are somewhat vulnerable.
The thought of some wise guy flicking it open isnt comforting either.
Click to expand...

Vandalizing a motorcycle is too easy. At least tampering with a quick-drain valve would leave a tell-tale puddle on the ground to warn the owner.
Thank goodness we don't hear too many stories of intentional damage to our bikes.

Interesting that the automotive side are now eliminating the traditional crankcase oil drain plug and oil changes are done using a vacuum on the dipstick tunnel.
 
internetannoyance said:
Actually....some things are being discussed in regards to what it will take to make a controlled valve. A lot of people are asking so there will be something. Considering the parts currently being developed the valve wont be available until next summer.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
Click to expand...

That will be interesting to see, I thought it would be a relatively easy part to manufacture, its kind of like a hobbs switch only positional.
Figured it would be fairly straightforward to source the parts to make one myself, After all, one can find brass valves relatively easily, But in my research I found that electrical switch isnt as easily sourced as one might think.

I would be interested to see more info on this,, are you talking a on-off ball valve? or are you talking an On-off valve with the micro switch or electrical cut out similar to the Iron johns part being made?

or...... are you looking at being an exclusive distributor of Iron johns parts and commishioning him to make them?

and will they be availible in multiple configurations or just C-do versions?

seems to be a lot of interest, I 'm sure people would like to know, and finally, for Brit bike cheap bastards,,,ooops, I MEANT Economy orientated 2 wheeled conveyance consumers,, can you comment on where you expect to be on these for a price point approximately?


Maybe EMGO will be carrying them in 6 months and the point is moot,

I installed inline check valves from Walridge motors many years ago in a number of custom Nortons and customer bikes when i was doing the shop thing, never had any problems and they had a convincing sales pitch about their relability. I also always installed a liquid filled oil gauge and a seperate red idiot light hooked to a chevy pressure warning switch, C-Dos its was at 5psi and Triumphs were at 7psi for the triggers, it was a good visual aide for riders to properlly warm their bikes and get the oil flowing rather than going full tilt on a cold engine. And yes, wet sumped engines will usually puke out the drive side main seal if started with a full crankcase. People that dismiss that problem either dont ride much or just have been blessed with divine luck and providence[/quote]





IA,

Still in the beginning stages. A lot to consider and the design has yet to be determined. It will not reduce the oil flow and most likely disable the ignition in case the valve is not on (open to flow). Cant say for sure yet.

No.....not looking to be a distributor of IJ parts at this time.

Designed for Norton Commandos only.

As far as price. It will be what it will be. Wont cut any corners in order to lower the price. Again....to far off to even take a guess at this point.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works
 
 
hobot said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-3-8-DC-12V-Water-Oil-Solenoid-Valve-2-Way-2-Position-/http://www.fryertofuel.com/solenoid_valve.html

http://www.emc-machinery.com/PU_series_timer.htm
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So Dr. Hobot-o,,, i clicked on every one of those, I saw prices from a low of $39.00 to over $160.00 just for the switch assy, not including in most cases fittings for the hoses,, in some cases there was mounts, others not, but the point i got from this,, is most looked rather bulky and I would think the average brit bike owners isnt going to be keen to have that bit of kit out in the wind for God and everyone to see, Price wise,, what I took from it is that Iron Johns bit of kit is starting to look like a pretty good deal, Its compact, somewhat elegant (not as muich as some parts on our bikes) and very functional.. Paint it black or?? and it wouldnt be too bad, But most of those you posted (I clipped the links above) arent nearly as attractive,,

So, i feel that all in all, You might have to go a long way to come up with something better. I am repeating myself, but I tend to be a cheap bastard, and i thought IJ's product was rather highly priced, but im coming around.

I guess time will tell if someone can make something better made, better looking and cheaper,,

OR,,, the chinese will ship us Radioactive pot metal replicas at a fraction of the price in 6 months and kill the whole market. People will buy them, becuase they are cheap bastards, badmouth the concept when they fail, and we will be back to square 1 leading to...


What kind of oil would you recomend with these valves?
 
I have been busy with other things, will get to the valves sometime this winter. I am only making a fewcup for my own needs, no interest in selling them. For that you can contact Ironjohn or AW Dove in the UK. He came up with a switch and a valve design years ago and last I looked was selling them for 40 gbp.

I have a brass valve here and two brass barb fittings to go with it. I got these from an Industrial supplier called Newline products, $8.50 ea for the valves, $1.50ea. for the fittings.
The handle looks right for the job, a bit of shaping and it will work.
The switch that looks interesting to me is a Cole Hersee 9004 automotive door switch, normally open. There is also a 9003 that is normally closed for kill button type wiring.It costs about $15. Braze a tang onto one of the barb fittings in the correct location, drill and tap it then screw in the switch. Slide some heat shrink tubing on and you are done.
The switch is rated for 5 amps. My ignition circuit draws about 1 amp. I think it should be fine.

Ironjohns contacted me as soon as I mentioned I might put these valves together. The message was "penny wise pound foolish"
He tells me that his switch is a custom made affair that he holds rights to and it will handle 40 amps. I dont expect to see a 5 amp draw on my ignition let alone a 40 amp draw so
I dont see that as necessary or even advantageous. In fact my ignition circuit is wired separately on a five amp fuse which has been in there for years.

Now if his switch is fully waterproof, as in sit in a bucket of water overnight with no moisture inside in the morning, then I think that would be worth looking at. Looking at the photos, it doesnt appear to be. Perhaps he'll enlighten us on that.
 
The contact info for AW Dove is at the bottom of page 4 in this thread
post56218.html?hilit=A.W%20Dove#p56218

There is a photo of the valve on page five of the thread. If appearance means anything, it looks very good. I know these have been in service for quite a number of years, couldnt find a single report of problems.

Glen
 
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