1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

"Goof-proof" anti drain valve sequel (2012)

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Motorcycles (Classic)' started by nortonspeed, Dec 15, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. nortonspeed

    nortonspeed

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    As the anti drain valve problem (yes it is a problem when not riding your Norton daily) hasn't been solved properly yet I am starting this thread again.
    Some of us came up with a good idea/design but the final "Goof-proof" valve including elegant appearance has yet to be presented!
    My ideal valve would be a clean looking automatic operating valve without electrical wiring (prone to trouble) like the CNW valve.
    Let's hear suggestions, idea's to create the ultimate solution to this bottleneck :idea:
     
  2. click

    click VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Hi,

    I thought Ironjohns was a decent solution? Is there some issue with this design, seems OK to my non engineering eyes!!

    Is there anybody on this side of the pond, Europe, supplying these valves?

    Kevin
     
  3. rvich

    rvich VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    It's funny to me. I fitted a manual valve, a Circle Seal 9500 series in stainless cuz I liked the way they look. No electrical connecions, switches or other parts to fail. Only me. People worry so much about forgetting to turn this valve on. Seems to me it is a lot easier to fit a oil pressure gauge and look at it when you start your bike than to mess with all this other stuff.

    Keep it simple and it is a lot easier to keep the bike running. I don't want an automatic valve and I don't want more electrical components. My three cents.

    Russ
     
    chaztuna likes this.
  4. nortonspeed

    nortonspeed

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    The worst type automatic anti drain valve I have experienced myself was the RGM type: full alloy body, steel ball and pretty tight spring causing an oil pressure drop of approx 10% throughout the rev range compared to using no valve at all. Best type (so far) the CNW valve: alloy sides with transparent centre part, synthetic material ball and much less tight spring (which I am still using now) causing oil pressure loss close to nothing. I learned the CNW valve also is produced with a steel ball (accompanying a tighter spring?) I never tested one of those which possibly will cause some oil pressure drop also due to a tighter spring to keep the heavier steel ball seated. Also the 3 piece CNW type valve has to be lockwired as it tends to split.
    Maybe the solution to the ultimate automatic valve is an one piece body and a spring just strong enough to keep a very light ball seated preventing oil to flow.
    Your thoughts please :idea:

    Russ:
    I used a manual valve for 3 years in combination with a disclock-reminder-wire (one end on my trottle grip and the other end on the kickstarter) to be sure NOT to forget to open the manual valve. The inevitable happened, don't ask me about the circumstances but I did forget to open the valve finally. I rode for 4 miles only to find out there was zero pressure on my gauge. Immediately I opened the valve and was extremely lucky no harm was done inside my engine. From that moment I fitted an automatic anti drain valve and got rid of the manual one.
     
  5. daveparry

    daveparry

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    No problem with having a manual valve so long as there's an ignition interlock/cutout included, i've had one like that for several years,

    Dave.
     
  6. mike996

    mike996

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    "As the anti drain valve problem (yes it is a problem when not riding your Norton daily) hasn't been solved properly yet I am starting this thread again."

    I totally, absolutely, and completely disagree - it's a solution for which there is no problem. My commando sits unused for several months at a time. After that period it starts on the second or third kick with no issues at all. Worrying about wet sumping is a waste of time and effort. There is no problem caused by wetsumping. Installing a valve to "solve" the "problem" can only CAUSE a problem. It can't fix anything because there is nothing to fix.
     
  7. DogT

    DogT VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    At the moment I think IJ's valve is the way to go, but probably not the ultimate solution for everyone. I'm happy with my ball valve and the ignition cut off switch and my forgetting brain. I think you, NS, are asking about a non external, non electrical valve? As far as I know the AMR solution is about as close as it gets, but I don't understand it, and from what I've heard it's not perfect either.

    As I said in pierodn's thread, my valve has made the bottom of my engine dry, I get no leakage or drips which I can only attribute to a sump that's not full of oil, while sitting for weeks and on start up. And I'm still using the original timed cam breather with a catch bottle from the oil tank breather and that just catches vapor now that I have the valve.

    mike, as for me, it's solved the problem of oil all over the bottom of the engine, but that's a condition of my early bike. It was an easier fix than drilling holes in the crank and installing a one way breather valve for me. I think it's a problem for some and not others. I considered it a problem.

    Dave
    69S
     
  8. 1up3down

    1up3down

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    I agree

    and that is why I have had a CNW valve in my oil line for over two years now with no issues

    Matt Rambow told me it is a light gauge coiled wire that opens very easily

    in fact Matt said he has never had a problem with one of his valve's coils not opening for oil flow

    he fits them to all his $30,000 Commando builds, I think he knows what he is doing
     
  9. nortonspeed

    nortonspeed

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    I totally, absolutely, and completely agree with you in your case. However you may have noticed other Commando's riding around the world sharing not quite your experience. Thank you for your mental relief, it's actually not a matter of worrying about the wetsumping more like a nuisance :?
     
  10. DogT

    DogT VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    His valves have come apart, which has the same effect as not opening, but he fixed that issue, as far as I know. I'm not trying to make trouble here.

    Dave
    69S
     
  11. 1up3down

    1up3down

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Mike said:
    Mike, you are using your own personal experience with your one bike to form a totally rigid opinion that applies to all Commandos on earth?

    Like, because my own Norton has never ever had a rear axel break then it follows that no one else has either.

    With all the threads and all the reports of wet sumping, clearly there is a problem.

    Perhaps you are fortunate to have a Commando with a very well fitted and lapped oil pump from the factory.

    Consider yourself lucky!
     
  12. 1up3down

    1up3down

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    valves, as in plural?

    Matt has stated that there was one instance where the two pieces of the plastic shell came unglued from each other and thus oil spurted out.

    He told me that his supplier immediately identified this as a plastic adhesive issue, now resolved years ago.

    It's not a perfect world, is it?
     
  13. daveparry

    daveparry

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    It was an easier fix than drilling holes in the crank and installing a one way breather valve for me.
    ------------------
    That sentence makes it seem you are confused between wet sumping and crankcase pressure Dog T? I'm sure you are aware that pcv valves have no effect on wet sumping, which is caused by oil draining past the pump,

    Dave.
     
  14. mikegray660

    mikegray660

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    funny i had one split on me too, so must of been 2 cases :roll:

    even better my valve stuck about a month later - i caught it before disaster occured, but that must of been the 1 case of that occurring too i guess :shock:

    i think the bottom line is failure of the miles style valves like CNW, OLD Britt's etc supplies, while rare, do occur (

    usually from air getting in the line/pump )

     
  15. DogT

    DogT VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    I wasn't aware that it was only one valve. I thought there were other instances, but it may not have been CNW ones, but things happen, I'm not trying to denigrate the CNW parts, believe me. I'm sure quality parts have failed in the past and will in the future too. We pays our money and takes our chances.

    But I wouldn't put a plastic part in my oil line, just my preference. I'm sure my brass valve could fail somehow too.

    Dave
    69S
     
  16. bill

    bill

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2003
    I have to TOTALLY disagree with this. here are 2 things it WILL cause, excessive crankcase pressure forcing the drive side crank seal out and massive amounts of oil forced up to the rings to have to contend with. My first point might make one wonder why Norton put a retaining ring in to hold the drive side seal???

     
  17. cNw

    cNw VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Hey Guys,

    Just to be clear. There was a whole production batch, probably 100's ( only Al Miles that designed and manufactured the valves really knows how many) that had an inferior glue holding the 3 piece valve body together. That is what promoted the recall I initiated for my customers. CNW got about 150 of them back and we returned them all to Al Miles. I am not sure if any other vendors that offered the same valve recalled the ones they had sold from this batch.

    I can understand the concern that some have with auto in-line valves and also feel that there is a need for a product that will address the wet sump issue.

    I am certain that before to long there will be something available that will make sense to most.

    Matt / Colorado Norton Works
     
  18. DogT

    DogT VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Yes, I understand the difference. They just seem to become the same problem for me. Oil and pressure in the sump.

    I'll try to be clear next time.

    Dave
    69S
     
  19. jrh2020

    jrh2020 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2012
    At the risk of beating a dying thread, this is a classic engineering dilemma in that there is probably no way to completely eliminate the failure modes.
    Past experiences with system design, simple mechanical solutions are often the most reliable. Electrical components can be pretty reliable as well, but often the failure is not with the solenoid, it is in the wiring (bad ground, loose pin on connector, corrosion, etc.) which increases the probability of failure. In general, the more elements/pieces you have in a system design, the worse the reliability.

    Manufacturing defects (such as adhesive issues) can occur with either type of design. There are methods used to screen parts to ensure sound product for aerospace applications (acceptance/proof tests, stress screenings, etc.), but most are out of the price range of these industrial/automotive type components.

    The ideal solution would be fail-safe (e.g. fails in the open position), but realistically, most components can fail in any particular mode (closed, open, partial), it is just a matter of probabilities. There are reliability databases (failure rates, failure modes, etc.) that are used by engineers in making these types of decisions.
    But in the end, it is just minimization of the failure rates and/or minimizing the effects of the failures (because failures will continue to happen).
     
  20. Foxy

    Foxy

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2009
    Gday Nortonspeed, the valves so far produced have aesthetic problems for me! Too agricultural looking, I want something more fitting for the space shuttle. So this is what Im thinking of using, it ticks all the boxes for me except the price but you have to pay for quality! $348 us http://pingelonline.com/guzzlerELECTROFLO.htm
    Ok its designed for fuel but Ive communicated with Pingel staff and they were quite confident in its ability to handle this application, having to put up with hot oil and flow requirements.
    In comparison to the AMR mod, Im assuming it would be around the same price?

    Foxy
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.