Don't touch that oil filter Eugene

Postby olChris » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:13 am

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Rubbish!.............

Ugh ya don't yet realize a hobot hobby is wiping smug sneers off the unbelievers ...

Particles of 40-50 mu are best main full flow filters can catch. The most wear causing as can get into the bearing/bush spaces yet pass through a full flow normal filters like flys though fence are only 1 - 10 mu. Only a by pass filter can filter what you wishfully imagine with good but wakeful discipline to change filters almost as much as oil.

In a case study performed by General Motors and published by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), it was determined that engine service life could be extended eight times when 5-micron filtration is implemented vs. the standard 40-micron filtration.

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http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... filtration

unicorn-horns-full-pass-oil-filter-protection-t10696.html

Yes indeed, a lot of rubbish being spewed.

We are not talking about full flow filters on a Norton. Clean oil is good, dirty oil is bad - lubrication 101.

Duh Dances we sure do run what is known as a full flow main engine oil filter as sure ain't no fine bypass filter. Full flow filters often have a bypass valve in case filter clogs up by the big stuff that blocks filter rather than oil passages. I've investigated myself and suggest you analyse the next sludge sample ya collect, mix with oil to put inside of a filter with a tissue under to collect, if ya can see particles those are too big to cause wear, if ya see color stain from particles too small to see w/o microscope, that's what wears surfaces.
The main filter on Trixie is for a 80's Toyota car. I don't like this fact either and makes me reflect on the wisdom of sludge traps and oil tank pick ups above the bottom and especially frequent changes while hot with still suspended fog size particles. You are not hurting anything to go many oil changes w/o a filter change. Most important time to change filter is after 1st few min initial start up, to open up and see what shows up on not. After that might as well connect a cooler instead of a filter.

All spin-on filters with rubber gaskets behave the same. They do NOT need heavy-handed tightening. As others have said, easy hand-tight then a half turn MAX with a tool. Or, if you have a particularly strong grip, don't even use the tool. As you compress that new rubber gasket, it causes a bind which really locks it down. I couldn't remember how many I've had to butcher to get off, after some ham-fisted ***er had overtightened on the installation. And I learnt this early in life by being the ham-fisted **er who had done it too tight in the first place, and having to undo my own work. :roll: Everything up to big marine diesels, i've been following this all my life, and never had one come loose "on the fly" . Besides, the Commando has the tab fitting for locking it down with a hoseclamp.
On the subject of finer filtration, I have seen oil change intervals go right out to 10,000 hours(vs 2,500) on marine diesels using the dunny-roll type filters, with a very long engine life achieved-certainly no worse than using standard filters and lower interval changes, with a corresponding savings in cost. When you are putting 80-120 litres of oil in at a time, getting four times the life from it is a big saving. But I'll always change a standard filter with the oil.

Jeez, I've just(partly) agreed with hobot :shock:

Well the clearance increases as engine wears and then larger pieces get in and wear engine it a vicious circle. The oil pump gear teeth will wear an then press will drop. (not that its high to start with)
An what do you do with the oil that's in the filter that is dirty when you change rest of it the dirty oil will mix with clean.
On something Hobot you have very good advice but on this one I think we will have to agree to differ an I think most of us like to change the filter not leave it.

ranmar850 said:

All spin-on filters with rubber gaskets behave the same. They do NOT need heavy-handed tightening. As others have said, easy hand-tight then a half turn MAX with a tool. Or, if you have a particularly strong grip, don't even use the tool. As you compress that new rubber gasket, it causes a bind which really locks it down. I couldn't remember how many I've had to butcher to get off, after some ham-fisted ***er had overtightened on the installation. And I learnt this early in life by being the ham-fisted **er who had done it too tight in the first place, and having to undo my own work. :roll: Everything up to big marine diesels, i've been following this all my life, and never had one come loose "on the fly" . Besides, the Commando has the tab fitting for locking it down with a hoseclamp.
On the subject of finer filtration, I have seen oil change intervals go right out to 10,000 hours(vs 2,500) on marine diesels using the dunny-roll type filters, with a very long engine life achieved-certainly no worse than using standard filters and lower interval changes, with a corresponding savings in cost. When you are putting 80-120 litres of oil in at a time, getting four times the life from it is a big saving. But I'll always change a standard filter with the oil.

Jeez, I've just(partly) agreed with hobot :shock:

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Yep true.......... But i bet you/they change their filters (fram type) every 1000 hrs or so (several times) or whenever the opportunity arises within that 10,000 hrs oil life cycle.. Apples aint apples here. Diesel marine (that may not get shut down or every allowed to get cold) with 100+ ltre's of oil is a weeee bit different that a Norton ridden on the weekends !!

Therefore in some obscure way (in principal) i can see the similiarity of the debating factions..... But within the context of the post previously, as was implied "not changing oil filters regularly" is and will always be rubbish.........

olChris said:

But within the context of the post previously, as was implied "not changing oil filters regularly" is and will always be rubbish.........

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+1

solarmoose said:

Decided it was time to change the oil on a MkIII I picked up a while back. Was going well until I tried to get the oil
filter off. Wouldn't budge. Tried a slip wrench and only succeeded in mangling the filter. What a mess. Had to take
the filter mounting head off the bike, put it in the vise and use a Big pipe wrench before it finally moved. Can not
believe how tight the PO had put that on. Thankfully getting the mounting head off the bike is straight forward.
Cannot imagine what I would do if the filter mount was on the engine in a limited access area, like several cars
I've had (sell the car). A good reminder to put little oil on the rubber gasket and not overly tighten it. In 40 years
of doing my own oil changes this is a first. Anyone got any better tricks?

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Im sorry that your simple "sharing" post regarding a tight oil filter got hijacked to a "related/oil filter" issue that turns into a "ol'fart" debate about right and wrong......... It happens all the time here, and me included have too much time on my hand for one reason or another and all in all, it can be a laugh...... Quite often some lose sight of the issue at hand and get distracted.........

ranmar850 said:

All spin-on filters with rubber gaskets behave the same. They do NOT need heavy-handed tightening.

Click to expand...

Agree on no need for heavy handed tightening. When you think about it, most common oil filters seal with an o-ring approach rather than a gasket approach. Most I have seen in the past employ a square sectioned rubber ring and some of the more recent types have used round section.

You need only a certain preloading for an o-ring seal to work.

True we are all going on about something else. As someone said earlier the filter should have that metal tab an jubilee clip to stop the filter unscrewing so not need to over tighten it.

Lubing the sealing ring is the correct way, it will stop the ring distorting, but it also means Eugene can screw the filter on even tighter and that lube won't be there when you want to unscrew the filter

olChris said:

Im sorry that your simple "sharing" post regarding a tight oil filter got hijacked to a "related/oil filter" issue that turns into a "ol'fart" debate about right and wrong......... It happens all the time here, and me included have too much time on my hand for one reason or another and all in all, it can be a laugh...... Quite often some lose sight of the issue at hand and get distracted.........

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Chris, Certainly entertaining. And I picked up a couple ideas like using silicone instead of oil to treat the o-ring.

This MK III hadn't run in two years for lack of time to get the maintenance done and last night after
finishing up the oil change, installing a new battery, replacing the battery leads with 6 gauge set, I hit
the starter button and she sprang to life immediately. What a lovely sound a Norton makes. I realized
how much I had missed that.
It will be four months before she comes out to play and I need to go plow snow again. But its also four months
to give me time to get some other bikes running too. I enjoy the shop time almost as much as the ride-time.
And the oil filter debates...
David

The funny illogical stuff is reading how hobot is always misleading the experts and novices too but nil recognition when again shown to be correct. Its a non issue on which camp of oil filter changing - as just extra money to replace too often - no harm but foolish to think you are being a good daddy and feeling guilty if you skip it a few years in a row or looking down on those who skip filter changes many gallons of oil changes.

1. the most friction causing particles we all worry about pass regular filters by very high percenttage. Not hobot hype just the tested facts not yet realized by most.

2. our engines are so small a car size filter is over kill and can last yrs if no blow up or something wearing out big oil passage size particles. So my post point to relieve those finding a filter on so tight ya know its been there some years.

3. there ain't much oil left in filter to worry about it on timely oil changes and likely about as much as remains in TS case. If I'm feeling anal as many here, I dump filter oil and check cam chain tension then put old dirty filter back on.

4. Its improper to over tighten filter and generally looked down on to apply sealant.

5. Proper way is secure filter on mc that can oil tire, is by some other way than over tightening, though I tend too > after oiling Peels tire just before blasting some sharp twisties I tested tire traciton-heat state in opens before barging in too fast for brakes to get squirelly in the straight to pull over an look back to see 1/4 mile of oil ribbon.
[ you modern race bike guys do check traction-lean-power limits before blasting into turns not to be surprised don't ya - if not then don't know what ya missing out on]

6. maybe only 1/3 of the friction size particles passed by regular filters is magnetic, so miss Al oxide/sapphire hard and diamond like carbon crust particles so I don't have much faith in magnets either.

7. i just depend on wet sump cam protective starts, keeping in cam break in rpm zone much as practical while avoiding lower gear lack of lube to sleeve bushes, topping off oil tank regually and changing oil 5000+-ish miles,

8. i"ve got a tri-linked Ms Peel so used to no one following me very closely till I wait in the opens for em to finally catch up to tease em to keep trying...

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulle ... 20wear.pdf

https://www.google.com/#q=toilet+paper+ ... ticle+size



https://www.google.com/#q=bypass+oil+filtration

Oil filter manufacturers wouldn't want you to know how often you really need to change your oil filter as it would really eat into their profits. Of course most of us change them with every oil change but not because it needs it, but because we've been trained to think so.

It's better on the outside Hobot...

Adrian has it right. The K&N 153 is available online. A quarter turn with a socket set releases the most stubborn filter, even those that have been energetically installed (speaking from experience here.) I use a K&N on my TR3A as well, for the same ease of removal. Why use anything else?

If you can find a Hazet wrench to fit the Norton filter it will loosen even the most recalcitrant filter...ran into this recently on a new Ford that had the filter crazy tight from the factory, a Hazet wrench left over from another vehicle long gone fit perfectly and broke the filter loose easily....

Chris, Certainly entertaining. And I picked up a couple ideas like using silicone instead of oil to treat the o-ring.

This MK III hadn't run in two years for lack of time to get the maintenance done and last night after
finishing up the oil change, installing a new battery, replacing the battery leads with 6 gauge set, I hit
the starter button and she sprang to life immediately. What a lovely sound a Norton makes. I realized
how much I had missed that.
It will be four months before she comes out to play and I need to go plow snow again. But its also four months
to give me time to get some other bikes running too. I enjoy the shop time almost as much as the ride-time.
And the oil filter debates...
David[/quote]


Have you tried this David.......... And yes i admit to stealing this photo and hijacking the premise of this thread...

toppy said:

True we are all going on about something else. As someone said earlier the filter should have that metal tab an jubilee clip to stop the filter unscrewing so not need to over tighten it.

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Do you need a photo of an oil filter that is secured with a tab and hose clamp........... ?? or have you given up or resolved your initial request??



.

STORY Time : the Vee Four with the VDO pressure guage ( 2 Litre NOT a honda ) At THREE thousand with the Short Filter , dropped 2 psi at idle ( 20 to 18 psi ) repeatably , Id freak & change it within 500 miles . The LONG Filter , which obviously had X % more element , would do it at 5000 miles . Repeatably 200 mile max. variation . 123 Lb Ft Tourque - more than a Lotus twin cam . :lol: :|
More HP too . amoungst other things .

As somebody once said before , if the Oil Capacity was doubled it would last longer as used half as often . But the FILTER would still do the same work & have same service life . So , if youve a fancy accurate pressure guage , and it drops a pound at a certain milage repeatably , THAT is likely the obvious change point for us fastidious individuals . :mrgreen: