Combat engine or not

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Aw you are in denial Rohan - as Standards can easy rev as high to strain crank, bearings and cases

no, Rohan is correct

it was the 19 tooth sprocket that made the Combat "able" to rev quickly to redline and not the standards

and so many riders did exactly that, and it was the high revs that caused the crank to dig into the bearings as it whipped

in addition, the only reason SOME combat bearings looked just fine was because they were not revved to often and too high, they simply had more sensible owners
 
Hm, at least 1up/3dn is coming around to the rpm crank wipe factor realization, by gearing and hanging on long as power band did. I know the basic history of my pre-Peel Combat as famous show room test cycle with red neck hot shot owners before me, one telling me how fast he'd take it - I had hard time believing him, till I eventually made it to pavement. Might look into the history of Norton funny machining alignments of that era someday. Til then I know I'm always wrong here.
 
Makes sense to me that those who bought Combats in the early '70s were those more likely to explore the full capability of the extra ooomph!

Not that 40thou of the head and a rorty cam somehow did the damage.

But look at it from another point of view; when I bought my non-Combat Fastback in '74 as a used bike, originally a South Wales police training bike!, and I don't think they were riding around road cones on it, they had plenty of Interpols for that, I think they were heading for the mountains incognito (well as incognito as you can be on a yellow Fastback!), anyway, it had less than 10,000 miles on in and the PO, a motorcycle mechanic, had recently fitted superblends.....so it didn't have to be a Combat to do the mains in, it had to be revved hard...which I continued to do by racing it, on those same superblends....no issue....oh, and on this standard motor valve float was at 7200....typically at the end of the Snetterton straight on a 19 tooth sprocket....which is what it had on when I bought it.....
 
I just finished removing the original FAG 306E bearings from the 850 cases and the 71 750's MRJA30 and 6306 ball bearings.
There are quite a few differences including the wider roller on the FAG bearing,the MRJA bearing on the 750 had radial play and it has some 15000 miles on the clock,it also has evidence of some calamity to the TS case with a few gouges.
I think the truth is no one really knows why the combat engine had problems some 42 years later.
Narrow track (3/8 " roller) original bearings,foaming oil,some Bermuda triangle harmonic at a certain rpm,the wrong oil brand.. :arrow: :arrow:
 
"i think no one really know's why the combat had problems"
Look at it like this, if back then Smith & Wesson bought out a 45 round with more power ,than stock...the hunters would have gone after bigger game. The Japanese beasts ! Thinking they had a better chance with the New "Full load" not knowing the chambers had NOT been improved to match the new 45 ammo!



Time Warp said:
I just finished removing the original FAG 306E bearings from the 850 cases and the 71 750's MRJA30 and 6306 ball bearings.
There are quite a few differences including the wider roller on the FAG bearing,the MRJA bearing on the 750 had radial play and it has some 15000 miles on the clock,it also has evidence of some calamity to the TS case with a few gouges.
I think the truth is no one really knows why the combat engine had problems some 42 years later.
Narrow track (3/8 " roller) original bearings,foaming oil,some Bermuda triangle harmonic at a certain rpm,the wrong oil brand.. :arrow: :arrow:
 
Written by: 'Beltdriveman'

http://nortoncommandoclutch.zxq.net/index_2.htm

34. SO CALLED ‘SUPERBLEND’ MAIN BEARINGS. (All measurements were taken with a micrometer / my even then olde pair of eyes and are approximate). When the Commando main bearing problem started to occur the D.S roller bearing was a Ransome and Marles MRJA30 bearing but with a brass cage and a designation 8MRJA30.The roller elements were the std. shape for that time having 11 rollers 11.12mm in diameter, 11.12mm in length with a parallel working surface of 10mm with a very small std. radius to the corners at each end. It had load values of Static 36,200 Newtons and Dynamic 41,900 Newtons. (The T.S. bearing was a brass-caged 6306 ball race bearing.) Personally I used to use the higher load capacity M306 ball race bearing but we did have a bearing factory in town in those days. In use on the more highly tuned Commando, due to crank flex the tiny area at the edges of the 10mm rollers’ parallel portion would be the only points of contact with the inner and outer raceways which damaged the hard surfaces of the raceways and rollers leading to quick failure.(4000 miles?). ONE of the MANY solutions required to solve the Commando main bearing failure problem was a change in the bearing rolling element design to what became known to Norton owners as ‘super blend’ where the rollers had a narrower central parallel portion with each end slightly radiused for a mm. plus of length which allowed the crank to flex more within the raceways without the edges digging in and increased the contact area within the raceways as the crank flexed, compared to the older bearing that is. I believe there are a couple of technical terms for the shape one of which is logarithmic profiling. The number of rollers increased to 13, the width and diameter of the rollers reduced to 9.53mm with the parallel part of the roller reduced to 6mm with the special slight radius at each end reducing to 9.46mm. This brass caged bearing manufactured by what had by then become RHP (Ransome Hoffman Pollard) and produced at the old Ransome and Marles factory at Newark had an old R&M designation of 6MRJA30 with the ‘6’engraved into the side of the outer raceway and the rest of the designation stamped on. The inner raceway being stamped MRJA30


The load values for the new ‘super blend’ bearing were lower than that of the original 8MRJA30 bearing it replaced and were Static 31,000N and Dynamic 35,800N. The Nicholson ‘bible’ Modern Motor Cycle Mechanics gives 6MRJA30 as the bearing to be used and tells owners NOT to use the one marked 8MRJA30. I find it interesting that the new bearing which partly helped cure the main bearing failure problem did not require similar or higher load values than the bearing it replaced. A gentleman at the Newark factory kindly calculated the load values for the two bearings for me after digging out the drawings from the cellars. I suspect the drawings along with those for an engine bearing used on a Bristol Bulldog fighter or something similar which the gent had just dug out for another query when I phoned have long since gone. In that Motor Cycle Sport article mentioned earlier (Jan 77 pages 27/28) the writer states that another manufacturers bearings had been tried but that yet another manufacturers bearings ended up being used as they proved better and at one time in a Birmingham warehouse full to the brim with cheap new and part finished BSA Triumph and Norton parts were a small pile of SKF bearings we were told had come from Norton and I SUSPECT these were the original ones tried. There were two types and we bought a few of each. These ‘barrel’ shaped roller bearings were made by SKF in two forms, a std. bearing and a high load capacity version both having a steel cage. One came in boxes marked SKF. NJ306. 1972, which had 11 rollers of 10mm diameter with a 7mm wide parallel section with a radius at each end tapering to 9.97mm. Load values were static 20,000N and Dynamic 36,900N. The other bearing came in boxes marked SKF. NJ306E.1972. (the ‘E’ designates extra load capacity) and employed 12 rollers of 12mm width and 11 mm diameter with a 9mm wide parallel portion reducing to 10.97mm at the end of the slight radius. Load values were Static 53,000N and Dynamic 57,000N. All load values being calculated for me by a Gentleman at SKF and I suspect the NJ306 static one is incorrect but I am not going to try to have SKF check it for me. After Norton etc. had ‘gone’ in one Birmingham emporium were probably several hundred RHP boxes each containing the old Atlas ball or roller mains, 8 bearings to a box and if memory is correct £8 for a box of ball bearings and £12 for a box of roller bearings. One dealer I believe then advertised the roller bearings for sale at £12 each referring to the brass cage as bronze. Not a bad profit margin. Out of curiosity I spent a couple of hours moving boxes and found two marked 6MRJA30 which, after checking the contents were the 6MRJA30 version I bought for £12 per box but have given most away to friends over the years thus ensuring another loss making exercise! At around this time most bearing manufacturers were changing or had changed the shape of their roller bearing rolling elements to include some slight ‘barrel shaping’ to the ends of the rollers, whatever the technical term for it is and this included FAG, RHP Steyr etc… The FAG ‘Super blend’ NJ306E bearing is just a brass caged high load capacity version of their std. NJ306 bearing but the rollers have slightly less radius than the special RHP 6MRJA30 bearings and I found it interesting to note that every old 6MRJA30 bearing I have seen that have been taken from old motors has wear marking on the rollers but not quite to the very edge whereas all the FAG ones (mainly fitted to 750 motors) show wear to the very edge of the rollers, probably because they don’t have as much reduction in diameter toward the outer edges but I suspect that the wear markings will have a bit to do with how the motor was used during its (short?) life. So why did Norton change to using FAG bearings? When I asked a couple of NVT gentlemen the answer given was that they were cheaper and FAG were just down the road.
 
At about 13,000 miles, my 71 750 buggered it timing side H.D. ball bearing. [ I recognized main bearing rumble in time. ] The drive side parallel roller was still in good nick , but I replaced both with superblends. As far as I know, I am still running the original mechanical advance unit, and it still looked good when I rebuilt the engine. I replaced the pistons as I was told the originals let their top fly off. Haven't done many miles in this bike since as I am gradually restoring it to better than original.
Just stating what happened to my bike, but not making any claims or assumptions.

all the best
 
hobot said:
is coming around to the rpm crank wipe factor realization,

EVERYONE knows about the crank whip in Nortons (except you can't even spell it !),
but clearly Nortons found that fitting bigger stronger bearings solved it - the bearing longevity part of it anyway.

Cranks had whipped since before steam engine days, but with strong enough bearings it don't matter no more...

Nortons knew about this from the first model dommie twins,
(since Bert Hopwood wanted the crank as a one piece made out of STEEL,
but the machine shop said they couldn't machine it like that,
a couple of areas couldn't be reached )
but the ball/roller bearings they fitted to the bolted up crank assembly on the first dommies were quite good enough to survive relatively big mileages.
And the same main bearings were used, more or less, right up to the Atlas and early Commandos, no problemo...
 
Alright then consensus is most everyone but me has Combat bearing factors all figured out so I guess its useless to delve into the 60's 70's drag racers before superduper bearings, fracturing cases before bearings or crank gave up. The 'w' sound plus the 'ipe' sound got combined in my brain scrambles.
 
You have to remember that there are about 20 ways that engines can self-destruct when they are pushed too far.
As you strengthen one bit, another bit in the chain will fail.
And some folks will tell you that the same bit never fails twice anyway !

How long did Phil Irving say it took them to make Vincent engines run 100 continuous hours full throttle on the dyno.
(That was the price of getting their Picador engine accepted into an Air Ministry contract).
About everything had to modified/strengthened/rearranged to get there...
 
More on Combat lore but ironically this fella's lasted fine for 2 decades sans super dupers but still can't get over the Norton PR name to fame. I garantee no one spared the whip on pre-Peel and I still thought they all rev'd to 9grand till hitting valve float shock enough to let go in time, shift and WOT again to save a pass. Wes my ride buddy told me stories of his early Combat blowing up bearings then took to shop that put in same new bearings and set tune right, so Wes said the Combat really woke up and he never lost a sprint to the ton though some the era bike could hit higher top speeds. Combats have Cream of the Crop potential to go far faster longer.
[PDF]
Standard versus Combat 750 - Ontario Norton Owners
http://www.ontarionortonowners.ca/techp ... combat.pdf
Roadster models only as the Hi-Rider used the standard engine only. Everything was ... pushed at high RPM for long lengths at a time over a few thousand miles.
http://www.ontarionortonowners.ca/techp ... combat.pdf

Combat engine or not
 
hobot said:
Standard versus Combat 750 - Ontario Norton Owners
http://www.ontarionortonowners.ca/techp ... combat.pdf

The 750 engine design was at it’s limit as far as HP was concerned and the Norton factory quickly introduced a thinned Valve Spring Cap (by .040 in) to make up the
different in the Higher Compression ratio (Serial # 232740) and the Superblend Main engine bearing ( Serial # 207198) .

Both quoted serial numbers appear to be incorrect, '232740' being well outside of Combat or even 1972 season production, and not even a legitimate 750 Commando serial number, as the 'last 750' was 230935*, October 1973.


According to Norton Service Release N2/3 (April '72) thinned valve spring cups (not 'caps') were fitted to Combat engines in the serial number range 202341 - 202665, the thinned cups intended to prevent the Combat engine valve springs becoming coil-bound due to the higher cam lift, his description that it was done: "to make up the different in the Higher Compression ratio" makes little sense.

Also, according to Service Release N2/9 (August '72) 'Superblend' (R&M 6/MRJA30) bearings were fitted from 211891, not 207198.

*Edit: As we know, there were some 235*** serial number 750 Commandos and 750 short-stroke engines (also a few '235' '74 850s too, as yet, unexplained) but no '232' series as far as I know.
 
L.A.B. said:
As the 'last 750' was 230935, October 1973.

Can I ask about that late 750 engine.
Only available for the 73 year bikes and one year only ?
It is different to the 72 cases ?
Is it a 750 version of the 850 including the cases with a 850 type cylinder in 73 mm bore.
You couldn't put a earlier top end (cylinder / head) on those cases.
 
There were some 'short stroke' 750 engines, and they were a version of the 77mm bore 850 engine but with a shorter 80.6mm stroke.
However, the standard production '73 750 (750 MkV 220000+) engines were a continuation of the 'late' 1972 750 engine specification as far as I'm aware, by which time the hole for the starter motor (covered by the blanking plate) in the timing case had become a solid area of casting. The standard '73 750 crankcases had the same low breather as fitted to all '72 750 models, not the '850' breather.
 
Hobot,

I do understand that you own a Combat and thus are proudly biased in your assumptions toward that model.


Regardless, facts can and do often get in the way and tend to refute such obvious bias.


For example, the fastest quarter mile time recorded by an accredited tester was 12.2 by a stock 850

also, the highest measured top speed was 114 again by an 850, versus an average 109 for Combats

for your information, the Combat typically has a lower top speed due to it having a 19 vs 21 sprocket

I did not make up these figures, they are from my book having all of the Commando road tests 69-76
 
I can accept 1u/3d's references that an 850, IF in Combat Spec, [ie: stage one hop up not offered by factory?] can get a few 10ths ahead of Combat 750 bombs, which would just back up my opinion if it ain't a Combat its a Cream puff. L.A.B'.s intense details are hard to keep up with but I've two exceptions to his rule of faith in Norton record numbers, as both my March and October badged Combats have cast over magneto areas, 206xxx and 210xxx. BTW I've not raced but have been to drags and land speed events to know same car/bike/rocket can gain or loss a hand full of 10th's time or mph with time of days temps air pressure and humidity. Anywho I don't hold a grudge against anyone trying to get me up to speed so keep slapping me around as objectively as possible.
 
I can accept 1u/3d's references that an 850, IF in Combat Spec, [ie: stage one hop up not offered by factory?] can get a few 10ths ahead of Combat 750 bombs, which would just back up my opinion if it ain't a Combat its a Cream puff.

fine, except that by "stock" I meant out of the box stock and not "hopped up" or "stage one"

and I have no doubt that IF the stock 850 was fitted with the same 19 tooth front, it would be even quicker
than the Combat, this is due to the 850 having more cc's and torque and so quicker off the line

there is nothing "cream puff" about 850s, I have owned Combats, standard 750s and 850s...and have taken
all of them to the local drag strip, their quarter miles are all within a half second of each other and depend more on the track surface, tires, ride weight and rider ability than most anything else

I weighed 135 pounds back then and the fastest quarter mile time was with my 73 850, stock except for swapping the 21 tooth for a 19, and that was at 13 flat, and I was far from highly experience dragster

in fact, the only substantial difference in quarter mile time was with my stock 75 Mark3, best I could get out of it was 15.3 and that no doubt due to it being the by far the heaviest Commando built along with the 21 tooth sprocket of course
 
hobot said:
L.A.B'.s intense details are hard to keep up with but I've two exceptions to his rule of faith in Norton record numbers, as both my March and October badged Combats have cast over magneto areas, 206xxx and 210xxx.

March would seem 'early' but October is 'late' so I make that one exception, not two, although October does seem rather late for a Combat.
As far as I know there doesn't appear to be any known serial number or date when the cast-over timing case was introduced (unless somebody knows it) but as a general rule, the majority of early '72 production Commandos seem to have had the blanking plate timing case while late '72 machines had the cast -over case.
 
Alrighty 1up/3dn i agree you are righter than me on performance similarity so we're just bickering within same close family. Norton did know how to press its luck making power and mostly got away with it. Still a bit of logic static to be bragging that the extra displacement 850 can only match the lessor Combat in get go but I've followed a pure stock E-Start heavy loaded 850 and made to work for it at his mostly sightseeing rates. Oh yeah, the 135 lb advantage is not lost on me you jockey! Rule of thumb is 7.5 lb less = 1 hp more of acceleration.

LAB Who knows what funny business Norton did - maybe starting up a new charge account at a case caster while using up parts left over from last supplier Norton $tiffed. I truly belive to save costs Norton used existing fork springs and used less metal in lenght of damper rod to get by. I don't know what the cost difference might of been in '72 to know how much influence on fellas looking at powerful sports cycles to swing head-heart back and forth betwix a silver barrel drum brake standard Commando vs a black barrel disc brake Combat Commando.
 
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