certified quarter-mile time.

Rohan · Dec 22, 2011

Carbonfibre said:
In terms of sports related machinery around in the 70s the Kawasaki 500 and 750 triples were pretty much the very best bikes available, being bulletproof reliable, and easily outperforming any other stock machines on sale during that period. They would certainly bite an inexperienced rider though, as they were in effect a race bike with road going equipment added.

2 stroke triple Kwaks "reliable and bulletproof" ???
What a joke.

Number of these bikes in collections about - low miles nice condition, crank and cylinders absolutely shagged out and not worth repairing (ie ultra expensive). Usually less than 10,000 miles on the clock - not much better than Combat Commandos, which at least were worth repairing...

How many pairs of rose coloured glasses did you have on to come up with that nonsense !!

Even the Wiki entry notes the poor handling and brakes...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_triple

Rohan · Dec 22, 2011

Murray B said:
Now, if you are implying that my engine data comes from memory that would be wrong. My data comes from a chart on page 54 of Roy Bacon’s “Norton Commando – All Models”.

Aha, so its OK for you to quote from books and magazines, but not for me ??

If we are getting our specs and data from magazines and books, then can argue for decades then on who got it right....

Rohan · Dec 22, 2011

P.S. Where have I "erased the Combat from history".

All I did was post a link to a Cycle test of a number of bikes at the time.

And the original question this thread was can a Mach IV do a 12 sec 1/4. ?
The numbers in that article suggest this was quite possible.
Despite nonsense about alcohol, doctored bikes, etc etc.

Rohan · Dec 22, 2011

Bruce Main Smiths "Super Bike Road Tests" published 1971 lists a Mach IV 1/4 mile at 12.4 sec.
English test, of course.

Carbonfibre · Dec 22, 2011

worntorn said:
I think the Combat was a model that in hindsight Norton wished it had not produced, at least not the way in which it was done.

My cousins new Combat did just 1500 miles before the crank broke in half. This was not uncommon for that model.

Nortons answer was to increase the cubes,decrease compression, build a stronger crank with tougher main bearings plus beef up the cases on the mk3. I think this was a good response to the problem, but as stated, a bit too late.

Here is how Haynes describes the changes in their section on modifications to the Commando range-

"in March of 1973 the 750 range was supplemented by the introduction of an 850 model, the engine of which embodies several design modifications to enable the same power output as that of the 750cc Combat engine to be obtained, with less stress on the engine components"

Glen

The Combat motor was introduced purely and simply as a result of Japanese bikes with 250cc lower capacity, which performed better than 750cc Nortons.

Carbonfibre · Dec 22, 2011

Rohan said:
Carbonfibre said:

In terms of sports related machinery around in the 70s the Kawasaki 500 and 750 triples were pretty much the very best bikes available, being bulletproof reliable, and easily outperforming any other stock machines on sale during that period. They would certainly bite an inexperienced rider though, as they were in effect a race bike with road going equipment added.

Click to expand...

2 stroke triple Kwaks "reliable and bulletproof" ???
What a joke.

Number of these bikes in collections about - low miles nice condition, crank and cylinders absolutely shagged out and not worth repairing (ie ultra expensive). Usually less than 10,000 miles on the clock - not much better than Combat Commandos, which at least were worth repairing...

How many pairs of rose coloured glasses did you have on to come up with that nonsense !!

Even the Wiki entry notes the poor handling and brakes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_triple

Seems strange that if these bikes were as poor as you are suggesting, that they outsold Norton in the US by a considerable number of units, and decreased sales in the US certainly played a big part in Norton folding.

In the UK the H1 and H2 are today both very collectable, and as good quality Japanese pattern parts are available with no need to contend with rubbish from India or Eastern Europe, its easy to keep them in A1 mechanical condition.

Carbonfibre · Dec 22, 2011

worntorn said:
The design of the Commando engine itself dates back to 1948. Forgive me that I see nothing wrong with this. If you read up on the history of that design and the evolution of the Dominator models, you will see that a great many changes and improvements occurred. This continued thru the Commando years.

What I am saying to you is that I lived thru those years, was an avid motorcyclist and mechanic at the time. The Japanese bikes were not without their problems, but the low price and good reliability for a short life won out over high priced better handling and mostly longer life brit bikes. The fact that we are still riding these bikes on long runs should tell you that.

I havent seen a Kawi 2stroke on the road in decades, tho tons of them were made. I see Brit bikes from the 50s thru 70s all the time.

You wouldn't enjoy a 500 mile high speed run on a Kawi 2 stroke from the early 70s. Lots of smoke and vibration, huge fuel consumption and poor handling was the package. For the most part, none of this mattered. They were affordable and would wheelie, so for the kid zipping around town, what does the rest matter?

My HIB did smoke certainly but handling was perfecting ok, and performance was so much better than most other bikes around at the time, high fuel consumption wasnt a big concern................

Rohan · Dec 22, 2011

Carbonfibre said:
In the UK the H1 and H2 are today both very collectable,.

Thats partly because its rare to find them intact and in good condition ?!

Performance bikes, cheap performance bikes particularly, have always sold well.
Look back through motorcycle history. The BSA sloper is another example that comes to mind.
Suspect steering, but went well....

Carbonfibre · Dec 22, 2011

Sounds like the BSA Sloper has a lot in common with the Norton then.

Rohan · Dec 22, 2011

When even the H1 Wiki entry describes them as poor handlers AND poor brakes, you know that CF has lost the plot.....

Carbonfibre · Dec 23, 2011

Have you ever ridden an H1 or for that matter an MX bike fitted with progressive suspension spring? I have ridden pretty much all of the bikes being discussed on this thread, and certainly wouldnt say that H1's handled badly or Commandos particularly well..................

Rohan · Dec 23, 2011

The experience of seeing that H1 headed for the trees when the rider opened the throttle put me off. Never saw a Commando do anything like that. Maybe you were the only good rider ever to own one ??

Commando feels firm and planted on the road, at least the ones I've experienced.
Surely that counts for something ?

Haven't ridden a serious dirt bike in years - but just seeing the action in the Dakar shows who is out in front ?. "after winning for 8 years running"
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport ... rom-dakar/
Dirt bike suspensions/dampers do tend to follow flavor-of-the-month trends though ?

Carbonfibre · Dec 24, 2011

Rohan said:
The experience of seeing that H1 headed for the trees when the rider opened the throttle put me off. Never saw a Commando do anything like that. Maybe you were the only good rider ever to own one ??

Commando feels firm and planted on the road, at least the ones I've experienced.
Surely that counts for something ?

Haven't ridden a serious dirt bike in years - but just seeing the action in the Dakar shows who is out in front ?. "after winning for 8 years running"
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport ... rom-dakar/
Dirt bike suspensions/dampers do tend to follow flavor-of-the-month trends though ?

The H1 and H2 were effectively race bikes with road equipment fitted, and the main reason they got a bad reputation was due to riders without much idea of how to ride a low power road bike even.

Handling on the Norton is rather wooden and slow feeling.............unexciting but pretty safe for less experienced riders, and ideal for the US market where most bikes ended up.

Unlike older road bikes where bolting on cheap parts which often dont work that well is common, serious modern dirt bikes come with OE parts that work pretty well for most riders, but the range of adjustment defeats a fair few riders though, and they end up with a set up which in some cases is far from ideal.

Matt Spencer · Dec 24, 2011

Murry met a kwakersiki 500 on the way home on his 71 Roadster , at the corner from the waterfront ,
Uphill , hard left uphill around 45 knots , steep uphill , eases off , through a cross roads , and up to the lights on the ridge .

First day the kwaker caught him napping , but was a w f o job , a rarity . They got about 90 mph before pulling up for the lights

Second day , low and behold , same time & place . Pulled his finger out this time , well ahead through the intersection ,
and the quickersaki has difficulties as the lights are red when he gets there .

:lol:

Third Day , Reapeat Exercise . Quite a coincidance . Too much of a coincidance . Though the kwakers nose is out of joint
ad hes giveing it full wellie.
Youngh Murry feels things arnt quite right , and 90s a bit off , just to proove a point . As the signs have ' 30 ' in those parts.
trundling through the cross roads at 30 , theres officer dibble with his apprehended kwickersaki, after its crested the brow
at 80 plus .

:mrgreen:

Carbonfibre · Dec 24, 2011

As I said in last post a fair number of H1 and H2's were owned by very green riders, and its certainly possible that something like a Norton ridden well, would be faster than an HI-H2 with a wobbler aboard!

Matt Spencer · Dec 25, 2011

Yea , but these ' road test ' bikes were never carefully Run - In , for 2.000 miles and looked after .
A properly cared for one would tear up a Jap Bike with ease on most occasions . Though half the riders
didnt think it worth the effort . Not being exiteable or easilly impressed , like the ' Honda Boys ' .

A classic was yelling ' Oi , Yr Sidestand Lights On ', ( before they were invented by Ducati .

:shock: )
Had a Kwaker 1000 Rider on his obviously brand new machine check his instruments and stand three times
as he wizzed past ( the Car ) before he woke up . got a big wave and smie out of him. So they wernt all snobs .

Carbonfibre · Dec 25, 2011

I used to work as a motorcycle mechanic in the 70's, and didnt come across any Norton which was able to run a 12s 1/4 mile, or was faster than an H1.................but hey this is the net after all so I guess Nortons can run a 1/4 in 12s, and have 130mph top speed..................lol

Matt Spencer · Dec 25, 2011

And use two lanes doing it . . . ?

I guess the kwakers go really well at 500 miles , with the roller bearing bottom end , and no valvegear . Then wear out . :lol:
Though most cant hold the throttle on the stop as the weaveing dissencourages them . Not to mention the rear wheel being 1/2 in to one side on the first 500s . :shock: :lol: Then theres the 25 mpg optimum .

First sucess in I.o.M. Production Race was Fatality . A good start .

Get the Commando out , give it a tune up , aim it somewhere open , see if you can find where the Thottle hits the stop . ?
One foot on right peg , let the clutch in at 3.500 and dont loose any rpm's . That should do it . :wink:

If that doesnt work , Remove the mufflers , and keep adjusting it , till you get it that quick with the mufflers on. :mrgreen:

Interstates a Combat , isnt it .

Carbonfibre · Dec 25, 2011

From the content of your posts it seems you have never ridden an H1, and are simply repeating what you have read. Having ridden pretty much all of the bikes mentioned in this thread I would say the the Norton has slow wooden type handling, with the HI-H2 being far more precise, but with a real need to be aware of the power available, which can certainly get newbie riders into lots of trouble.

gory · Dec 25, 2011

And the award for this years most ironic quote goes to...

Carbonfibre said:
From the content of your posts it seems you have never........and are simply repeating what you have read.

pot calling the kettle?

certified quarter-mile time.

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