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Brexit or no Brexit

Discussion in 'Access Norton Pub' started by Bernhard, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    In the end it probably comes down to religion. Do you believe in the neoliberal globalised free market economy or do you not ? Either way the result is the same - YOU LOSE !
    There is probably no 'win-win strategy'. If it was my decision to make, I would simply cop it sweet. Unionism is a thing of the past - now it is every man for himself. If I was starting out again, I would be totally ruthless - anyone can play that game.
     
  2. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    The only motorcycle road racer I have seen who was into 'cult of the individual' was Phil Read MBE. I think he would run you over to get ahead.
     
    Fast Eddie likes this.
  3. Eljahara

    Eljahara VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2018
    The expression “kicking the can down the road” has been extensively used by commentators and opposition politicians as well as the EU. The EU effectively kicked the can into he next postal district!
    The problem is that there is no consensus in parliament for any deal, PM wants no customs union or single market, main opposition party say there MUST be a CU and SM, others want no Brexit, others want a second referendum.....
    Six additional months will not change the position and we go around again.
    Einstein said the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome - we are there :confused:
     
  4. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    This is a good explanation, like trying to leave a Burger King.

     
  5. Eljahara

    Eljahara VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2018
    Excellent!
     
  6. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    The problem we have in Australia is that nobody knows who is doing what to whom. The content of our free trade deals with other nations is secret. And in many FTAs there are Investor State Dispute Provisions which can undermine national sovereignty when actions are undertaken in international courts which can over-ride local laws.
     
  7. frankdamp

    frankdamp

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    There should never have been a "Brenter" in my opinion. Whoever was US Prez at the time tried to set up a North Atlantic Union as an alternative to whatever the EU was called then. The "NAU" would have had the US, UK, Iceland, Greenland and maybe the Irish Republic. As I remember, the UK were scared of the "Big Cousin" completely over-running every other member and, instead, joined what was then a European trading partnership, not the political "United States of Europe" that it has become.

    I remember some big-wig (maybe Churchill) saying "The Wogs begin at Calais". The development of the EU and the collapse of the UK engineering industries were a big part of our family's decision to emigrate to the US. The last two UK companies I worked for (Wickman Machine Tools and Norton-Villers) both went bankrupt. We've been in the US since July 1968 (all but 3 years in Washington State at Boeing) and the more I see of the political shambles the UK has become, the better I feel about that decision. I retired from Boeing at age 57 (in 1998).
     
  8. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    My friend was making barrels and wedges for pre-stressing concrete using a Wickman multi-spindle lathe. It was extremely labour-intensive, but there is not CNC modern equivalent which is so effective at doing that work. In Australia, we had the whole British trades system. Some of the work we did was high quality, most of it was not. What seems to have happened is that anything fiddly was engineered out of designs. So the manufacture became more suited to CNC machines, and other countries took the cream. What is made these days can be made by operators and engineers, rather than trades-people. For Australia, there is no way back and no way forwards. We just have to stand still and cop it sweet.
     
  9. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Well, March the 29th has been and gone and we are still in effect a member of the E.U. and worse still, PM May has had to go back to the EU, cap in hand, to obtain an extension on UK membership, which will put us in the Euro elections –forcing us to pay out for yet another years EU membership. And now, the local council elections were last Thursday- and the British voters displayed their wrath and gave the Tory party their worse local election result since 1995, losing 1,335 Conservative council seats, the Labour party didn’t do much better.

    There have been about 15 MPs who left their party and set themselves up as pro remain party and you will notice, not one resigned and forced a local bye election- and no wonder- judging by Thursdays result none would have retained their seats - All would have been kicked out!
     
    Eljahara likes this.
  10. Eljahara

    Eljahara VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2018
    They should all face legal action for false advertising.
    In 2017 both of the main parties campaigned on a leave manifesto - these MPs were voted in on that mandate and as soon as they arrived in the HOC they began working for a remain agenda!
    Who would have thought it.....politicians lie to get elected and then stick it to the voters.
    John
     
  11. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    The fact we’ve been ‘forced’ to pay for another years EU membership seems fair to me. I don’t see us making ANY f***ing progress on the matter quickly. Our politicians and our political system has been paralysed by the issue. They and it are not capable of finding a resolution.

    People describe it as a political stalemate. That’s not how I see it. I see it like a stand off in a war of attrition, the side that backs down soonest loses. And currently neither side is backing down, or even blinking.

    So in all likelihood we’ll need another year. And if we’re in it, we have to pay our dues.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it’s at times like this I’m bloody glad I’m not a politician!
     
  12. Madnorton

    Madnorton VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    And look how quick Farage re-gains his popularity. Our MP's have been well trained by the Euro idiots over the years, and thus the indecision. The sooner we can leave that shambles the sooner things should get better. Like buying imperial size tube from the country it is made in, not the US - it is made in Germany, but can't be bought in the EU, how stupid, it has to be bought from the US who quite happily supply German mill certs for it. The two stroke engine ban policy was a classic also, and it was not the British that sussed that one for them either, dumped 3 months before it was due to become law, they forgot about chainsaws! a cold winter for some was avoided.

    As for EU harmonisation, look what each country requires you to carry in your car, and on your bike, you would think it would be the same for all, but no. Just like motorcycle gloves in France, wrong ones and it is a fine. Caught without your driving licence in a car in Croatia and you'll be paying.

    As for motorcycles, look at Yamaha website USA and the EU website - we are the poor relations.

    It is great idea to leave the EU, but have this current pile of indecisive fence sitting MP's in charge post leaving, my god, it will be dreadful.

    Like the UK defence minister, a reservist. I have asked how the two jobs are compatible as regular military can't be MP's what makes a reservist different. If she gets called up for a deployment like a regular, what then? a by-election to cover her seat for 6 months.
     
  13. xbacksideslider

    xbacksideslider VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    All trade deals are driven by some form of bribery. That is their product, their purpose.

    Even Trump's new trade deals, while better, are just more of the same.
    It's always a matter of what interest - be it a single company, a whole industry, a particular union, or unions generally - is willing to supply something of value to the politicians in charge. That value can be plain old bribes, campaign cash or other political support - volunteers and such.

    The Clinton/Bush groups, seeing the decline of big unions in America, tilted the machine toward big business and especially the globalism of Wall Street. Exhibit A - the replacement of GNP with GDP. They ignored the blue collar workers of the American "rust belt" of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, and the like, including coal country - turning to the export of heavy industry. Greens loved it. Wall Street financed it. Whole factories were torn down and shipped to the third world.

    That class of voter, blue collar, used to be reliable Democrat and they were courted by Democrats. The Clintons and Obama took them for granted; old loyalties/voting habits die hard so they were shat upon for nearly thirty years. Trump saw the opportunity; played to it, and took enough of those states' electoral votes by narrow margins.

    Trump's trade policy is not motivated by that same ol' corrupt big business/big labor bribery; rather, his policy is driven by votes. He bought votes with a new trade policy. That said, his trade negotiators still sell favors. Negotiations are still secret. Checks are still being written, just by different interests. The old, established interests are shut out; they hate losing and having to beg for just some of their long held privileges. The cracks run along new, different lines. The old trade constituencies are fractured.

    The irony of it all is that the Republicans, who championed "free trade" from the late '40s on, now, in the form of Trump, may have returned to their roots as the party of the tariff. They were the tariff party throughout the 19th century and that stance can even be traced back into the pro-tariff Federalists of the late 18th century.
     
  14. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    A friend of mine votes conservative because he runs a small business. He made the comment ' it all depends on which side of the fence you are on'. In Australia most of our politics is about division. We rarely ever see companies indulging in Employee Share Ownership Programmes or Productivity Gain Sharing. If we all work together with the same goals, we would probably do much better.
     
  15. Eljahara

    Eljahara VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2018
    Very true Al, unfortunately the business owners and their share groups would receive less profit so the impetus is not there for co-operative ownership and sharing the spoils!
     
  16. Madnorton

    Madnorton VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    As for Triumph, the same Triumph that stamped on the UK Triumph's being ridden to Spain and parts of Europe to save some money for owners there, many of the dealers involved were shut down.
    As we were all of one Europe, then any EU citizen should be able to by a bike from any dealer anywhere in EU territory - try it and see what you will be met with! The EU market place is fixed, in France you need a licence to import items commercially from other parts of the EU, these are only granted when the authorities cannot find it or subsidise its manufacture in France, member states agreed to this to keep the French happy. Surprised Trump has not tried that one yet.
     
  17. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Any change to an economic system is designed so winners always win. At the time of federation in Australia, politics were about free trade and protectionism. Free trade theoretically lowers the cost of living by providing cheaper goods and services, but at the cost of local jobs. What can you buy, if you have not got a job ? The UK would never have entered to common market, if the elite could not see advantage in it for themselves. In Australia, we have almost lost the whole of our technology base, however the retail industry is booming by selling Chinese manufactured goods. Blue-collar workers are not usually shareholders. However if they hold shares in the company for which they work, they have the right, even obligation to attend the shareholder meetings. Then the endemic and damaging adversarialism might disappear. In Australia, some companies have ISO9000 type documented management systems. If they are done properly, they can enable workplace teams to self-manage. It can put a new face on industrial democracy and productivity.
     
  18. norton bob

    norton bob

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    I say dissolve the Parliament as they clearly do not understand what democracy means. God save the queen!. Might just as well go back to a Monarchy. I will definitely be voting for the Brexit party in the coming EU elections ,Its the only way to demonstrate our disgust of all the current self serving traitors.
     
    chris plant likes this.
  19. Eljahara

    Eljahara VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2018
    The irony is the message from the main parties is all about “bringing the country together - healing the division from the 2016 referendum” yet the reality is that they are all fracturing - new parties emerging daily - Brexit party, Change UK, English Democrats...
    Corbyn had difficulty answering a simple question in the week - would you like tea or coffee! (Check it out)
    This lot couldn’t agree whether to breathe in or out consistently.
    Problem is, we are stuck with them till 2022
     
  20. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    The underlying problem with both Trump and Brexit is probably neoliberalism. Maximum freedom for everyone might sound good, but if there is no balancing level of control, safety and quality of life can suffer. The Americans have no monarch who could dismiss Trump - due to their love of freedom. Brexit is about free trade which is usually manipulated to give a different result, due to freedom of the individual - deregulation ? There is probably no way back to prescription, however more performance-based regulation based upon desired goals, might give an answer.
     

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