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Question about Brexit

Discussion in 'Access Norton Pub' started by acotrel, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    In May 1926, there was a general strike in the UK which was about coal imports from the Ruhr after WW1. The main protagonists were the mine owners and the miners. The Conservatives construed the issue to be a constitutional crisis and so it never became the basis for a revolution.
    With Brexit, I am puzzled about who is involved and who stands to benefit from a 'no-deal Brexit'. The Conservatives seem to want the 'no deal' situation very badly - whom are they touting for ? - They have also mentioned this 'constitutional crisis' thing again.
    One thing which interests me is that our George Brandis yesterday, made a statement about 'visa freedoms' and Brexit. It seems to reflect on the situation we have in Australia with cheap labour being imported under false pretences.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  2. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    They do not ‘want’ a no deal Al. The issue is that the public voted to leave. That was supposed to happen on the 29th March. As no deal had been reached, an extension was granted to 31st Oct to allow extra time for this to be concluded. Therefore, unless something else is done, the default position is that we automatically leave on the 31st Oct as that is when the current extension expires. What they are now saying is that extensions cannot go on forever, and if no deal is in place, then we will leave without one RATHER THAN be trapped in a strange open ended extension scenario.

    It’s also worth remembering if we leave without deal on the 31st, you can bet your bottom dollar that negotiations about trade deals will commence on the 1st!

    Deals WILL be made... they always are.

    But the current government is simply saying it does not want to stagger on with an open ended extension ‘stale mate’ scenario.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  3. cjandme

    cjandme

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Isn't the crux of the issue, or one of the hurdles, the Irish border?
     
  4. jbruney

    jbruney

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    At least there'll be no more by the leave of Brussels. Now I'll bow out because I've never really understood the concept behind the whole EU thing anyway. Didn't see any real advantage for England by joining. $.02.
     
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  5. Paul W

    Paul W

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Don’t forget Brexit is about the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. England is a part of it along with Scotland and Wales.
     
  6. Onder

    Onder

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    To me the bottom line is that UK has lost its independence to be ruled by fiats from a bunch of unelected suits who answer to no one including the useless and toothless EU parliament. Now the country voted to leave and the MPs in London are simply unwilling to carry forth the will of the people.
     
  7. BLIGHTYBRIT/SF

    BLIGHTYBRIT/SF VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2016
    5E475E69-0F52-4757-9F2F-9EDFF64FC47B.jpeg Well here’s one explanation,Rod Liddle is an outspoken journalist,I think he could be onto something
     
  8. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    That seems to be a major part of the problem everywhere. Neoliberal globalisation was introduced into Australia premptively, by Hawke and Keating (Labor). There was very little debate about free trade and protectionism because most Australians are apathetic. We don't give a stuff about politics, as long as we are OK at the time. My feeling is that globalisation is a good thing. But politics is about making things better locally rather than globally. So the globalisation ethos gets modified by vested interests. One of the major things which has happened in Australia has been the destruction of unions - we currently have zero wages growth because a lot of jobs have gone off-shore, however the top end of town is becoming much wealthier.
    The thing about Brandis and 'visa freedom' and Brexit is interesting. These days our employers import cheap labour on visas under false pretences
     
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  9. jbruney

    jbruney

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    If the leaders don't represent the people oust them at the polls.... You can see how well it works here. Once in every sheepdog becomes a wolf. They just can't resist power and money.... If you could remove those from the equation politicians could perhaps do a proper job, or if they were given the gibbet for their crimes against the people. I'm 100% certain after one or two swing the others soon become virtuous men.
     
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  10. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Sadly it’s not quite so straightforward with this issue, far from it really...

    The party in power IS trying to deliver what the people voted for. But, however they try, they’re being blocked and tripped up by the opposition and dissenters within their own party, sometimes digging up arcane laws never intended for such purposes.

    Now, when the government tries to fight back and deliver the people’s will, they are called undemocratic.

    The official opposition party continues to hold a NEUTRAL POSITION on the matter! Imagine that, something this big, and this important, and they won’t even say what they stand for. Their leader is strongly criticising the government trying to take a strong stance on leaving, he criticised the previous leader for her weak stance on leaving, yet until recently he has been the most ardent anti EU speaker, look at this to see the level of hypocrisy, it’s truly staggering:

    Remaining neutral at the current time is a scandal. If there was an election, voters wouldn’t even know what they were voting for them for! And it means they add nothing positive to the debates, they can just sit back and object to everything because they have no cards on the table!

    We’ve now got judges telling the government what to do, which has never happened before.

    In short, this issue has highlighted the limit of our political system and it is quite simply unable to cope with the task at hand.

    In the past (and in the present elsewhere) this is how wars started...
     
  11. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    There is a thing which Charles the First called 'populism'. In a democracy, there is always a possibility that the general population has got it wrong. Yesterday our Australian Prime Minister, Scott Morrison - issued a warning about 'negative globalism'. He has just returned from visiting Trump, and is obviously now into a bit more manipulation. It will probably play out in the Murdoch media. Australia's major trading partner is China, but we rely on America to defend us when all turns to shit. Trump's trade war with China can make that happen. In the meantime Australia would go bust.
    It is pretty obvious that neoliberal globalisation has flaws, but the system does work. Corporations are globalised, so a globalised level of government is probably appropriate. Profit-shifting for tax-avoidance purposes is endemic.
     
  12. MikeG

    MikeG

    Joined:
    May 31, 2012
    Populism-exactly the reason Americas founding fathers set us up as a democratic republic and put the electoral college in place. Populism is also the reason any globalized form of government will quickly turn into an overbearing bureaucratic nightmare where nobody but the bureaucrats are happy.
     
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  13. acotrel

    acotrel

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    Jun 30, 2012
    Globalised problems probably need globalised governments. The problem is really that we are all motivated by self-interest instead of the common good. International corporations profit by exploiting national differences. So in effect we are our own worst enemies. Individually all nations rely on the tax take. When that ends up in the Cayman Islands, we all lose. Trump's businesses are globalised.
     
  14. o0norton0o

    o0norton0o VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2015
    I'm not really up on the drawbacks/benefits of being in the EU, but from Nigel's discription it's very similar to the USA's political situation. If an opposition party opposes the will of the people directly, they risk being blamed for lack of progress, so they just abstain from cooperating and policies die without a vote.

    Alan never stops talking about globalism... The problem with it in general is that we have national systems of economic rules and social welfare systems that each nation's population pay into and are subject to. If globalization means a breakdown of national systems and borders, then those systems are not designed for the effects of globalism. The USA is facing that now.

    Interestingly, you mention the Cayman Islands. Did you know that you can't go to the cayman islands to do labor work without hiring a caymainian for every worker you import? The government has protected their nation's workers with very strict rules regarding foreign labor. One of the effects of those rules is that the Cayman islanders are a very happy and prosperous culture. They don't resent foreigners in the least. In the USA, protecting the nation's blue collar population from the influx of cheap labor is called "racism"... interestingly enough...

    It's weird to see the UK has the same political dynamic as we do here in the USA... I suppose nationalism is being challenged by globalism everywhere on the globe.
     
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  15. desmo

    desmo

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2019
    the government is a shower of privileged muppets hanging on dearly to outmoded victorian values ,low wages and crap conditions for workers , Torys are out to screw you for your last penny
    but you 17 million cant see it through them rosy spitfire pilots goggles

    lets stay in the eu and at least have someone who can keep them torys on a leash , worldwide standards are what we need not some deregulated free for all

    lets raise the lion rampant and vote Snp
     
  16. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    So, you don’t see any irony in arguing for Scottish independence from the United Kingdom AND simultaneously ceding sovereignty to the EU...?
     
  17. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    In Australia, most people buy on price, rather than quality. In the 1970s there were GATT meetings around the world which were about globalisation. One of those meetings was in Brazil and it was about preventing quality issues becoming barriers to trade. In Australia, we have a highly qualified, highly paid workforce. To justify it, we need to produce at the top end of the market. You can add value to create wealth in two ways - one is to produce a large number of lower quality goods, the other is to increase the quality of a smaller number. The only way Australia can compete globally is by staying at the top end of the market.
    However the ISO9000 definition of 'quality' is 'fit for purpose'. It does not mention attention to detail. When we compete against the Chinese and Indians we are competing with cheap labour. So if we accept low quality products, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
    In Melbourne and Sydney, we now have a major problem replacing the imported aluminium cladding on high-rise buildings. We also have the situation where the imported wheels on our trains are wearing too fast. We have imported steel bridge structures which are cracking in service.
    A major problem is that when we had protectionism, our manufacturers were probably no better than the Chinese or Indians. They took the opportunity to sell us rubbish, so now we accept almost anything regardless.
     
  18. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    In America, you have industrial lobby groups who run the country. They influence the international standards which are calked-up in free trade agreements, through ANSI. They also affect technology transfer and the distribution of intellectual property when they invest off-shore. A lot of what they do, is about reducing labour costs globally. The lowest common denominator is not a very high wage.
    Personally, I am as bad as anyone - I have a shed full of Chinese tools. They do the job and they are cheap enough to throw away when they fail. The Australian-made tools we used to have were just as bad, and they used to cost more.
     
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  19. jbruney

    jbruney

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2019
    $.02 coming down the pipe... I've got a few tools which are approaching a century and going strong, then I've got a pile which are less than 5 years old and ready for the trash heap.... some of the youngsters weren't particularly cheap, or foreign either. I just believe no one really gives a damn about quality as long as they're the one's that capture your $$, and then to hell with you and your satisfaction..... So now my ride time has arrived again..... 20 miles(more if I'm adventurous & daring do) of stress relief and forget all. Better than vitamins..... and I perhaps may be asked an ignorant query if I stop before coming home.
     
  20. trident sam

    trident sam

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012

    At least if we are out of the EU, when I get fed up of the Torys screwing me I can vote someone else in to screw me instead.
    I absolutely resent and always have done, having laws forced on us by failed states, which Germany and France are, as well as the rest of Europe.(Russia excepted)
     

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