Another point of view on oils, ect

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So, the question comes down to - do we really need to put the very best oils available into our beloved old steeds.

If the answer is yes, then the Oil Co's Marketing Depts would be well pleased ??
 
Or perhaps you can seek solace in the old saw about the worst modern oils are better than the best oils of the past.
All depends on how hard you drive, what the temperatures are, how often you run the bike and all those other
factors that affect results.
 
....as I head down the automotive/oil aisle at the WallyMart :)
 
Copied from Machinery Lubrication


Consider Base Oil and Refining Method When Selecting Lubricants

Noria Corporation
Tags: industrial lubricants

How important is the base oil in the selection of lubricants?

Contrary to popular belief, there is no doubt that the type of base oil and the refining method used must be considered when selecting lubricants, particularly for unique or unusual applications. In order to understand why base oils exhibit different qualities, it is necessary to briefly describe the various refining processes.

Acid/Clay Refining

This process involves the treatment of crude oil distillates with sulfuric acid or oleum. It initially improves the color and aging tendencies while increasing density and viscosity index. Today, the use of acid/clay refining processes is limited to the manufacturing of some white oils and sulfonates along with the regeneration of some waste oils. This process has, to a large degree, been replaced by more modern refining methods. This is due to the fact that the process produces large quantities of acid sludge, which is very difficult to dispose of without a negative effect on the environment.

Solvent Refining

This is the term for the removal of most of the aromatics and undesirable constituents of oil distillates by liquid extraction. Common and suitable extractants are phenol, furfural and sulfur dioxide. Furfural is used extensively as the extractant for the refining of paraffinic oils. The resulting base stocks are raffinates (referred to as neutral oils) and an extract fluid that is rich in aromatic content, which is highly sought after as process oils and fuel oils.

After solvent extraction, the raffinates are de-waxed to improve low-temperature fluidity and then hydrofinished to improve the color and stability. The final quality of the base oil is determined by the severity of the application of temperatures and pressures in the hydrofinishing process. The base oils are now ready to be selectively blended with the appropriate additives.

Catalytic Hydrogenation

Also called hydrotreating, this refining process subjects the distillates to a chemical reaction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst as high as 420 degrees C and pressures up to 3,000 psi. Hydrotreating processes are the favored methods used by many base oil refiners and lubricant manufacturers. This is due to the small material losses involved. When hydrotreating is performed, more than 90 percent of the aromatic content is converted to hydrocarbons.

The principle of all hydrogen-treating processes is quite similar. The crude distillate is preheated to temperatures between 150 and 420 degrees C and then brought together with hydrogen or a hydrogen-enriched gas through a fixed bed reactor. The oil reacts with the hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst to control and speed up the reactions.

There is no question about the higher purity of hydrotreated base oils, but they do have some disadvantages. Some additive types cannot be effectively blended with these base oils because they drop out of solution. That is, hydrotreated base oils cannot retain their solubility for some chemicals, and thus additive retention may be seriously affected.

In addition, because severely hydrotreated base oil contains almost no aromatics, these oils must be fortified with seal swell agents in the additive package. Solvent-refined base oils, on the other hand, retain some aromatics, which are “natural” seal swell agents.
 
Ash in oil is normally related to the amount of detergent in the oil -and yes, diesel oils are usually high detergent.

Is that a bad thing?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... ber=469730

The majority of motorcycle specific oils are not necessarily made for a Norton motorcycle.

They are often modified for use with a wet clutch and gearbox that operate in the same lubricant on most motorcycles. Often that means less extreme pressure additive.

They are also designed for a modern water cooled motorcycle engine -excepting of course oils designed for HD.
That usually means they are thinner and more readily consumed in a Norton.

So yes, many times a diesel oil is going to be closer to "filling the bill" than a motorcycle specific oil. Jim



Danno said:
I know people who use 10W40 Rotella T6 synthetic diesel oil because it's cheaper than 10W40 Mobil 1 4T and somehow believe it is just as good when tests such as the one cited at the beginning of this thread clearly show it isn't. And just because you can get away with something, it doesn't mean that's the best you can do.

I have read that diesel oils are higher in ash content than automotive or motorcycle-specific oils. Although I don't know why, the lubrication engineers who formulate oils must have a reason for that that pertains to use in diesel engines and not car or bike engines, so rather than pretend I am smarter than they are, I defer to their judgement. You are free to pour whatever kind of cheap crap you want into your oil tank.
Click to expand...
 
comnoz said:
The majority of motorcycle specific oils are not necessarily made for a Norton motorcycle.

They are often modified for use with a wet clutch and gearbox that operate in the same lubricant on most motorcycles. Often that means less extreme pressure additive.

They are also designed for a modern water cooled motorcycle engine -excepting of course oils designed for HD.
That usually means they are thinner and more readily consumed in a Norton.

So yes, many times a diesel oil is going to be closer to "filling the bill" than a motorcycle specific oil. Jim
Click to expand...

+1 on that. I was trying formulate a similar answer, but you nailed it.

Ken
 
Going off on a tangent for a moment, I have just been given a five gallon drum of Castrol 20/50 Classic. A mate bought this about ten years ago for his Ducati 900 but only used a couple of pints. Since then it has been stored in a cool dark garage. Any idea if it is still good. Does oil deteriorate over time?
 
Have you ever noticed that oil will settle out over time in a barrel? I always wondered about this as you can
even see this in a quart bottle.
 
comnoz said:
Ash in oil is normally related to the amount of detergent in the oil -and yes, diesel oils are usually high detergent.

Is that a bad thing?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... ber=469730

The majority of motorcycle specific oils are not necessarily made for a Norton motorcycle.

They are often modified for use with a wet clutch and gearbox that operate in the same lubricant on most motorcycles. Often that means less extreme pressure additive.

They are also designed for a modern water cooled motorcycle engine -excepting of course oils designed for HD.
That usually means they are thinner and more readily consumed in a Norton.

So yes, many times a diesel oil is going to be closer to "filling the bill" than a motorcycle specific oil. Jim/quote]

4T oils (4-stroke, common crankcase/transmission) have polymer anti-shear additives to prevent viscosity loss from the gnashing of gears. Anymore, the majority of these engines are liquid-cooled, but an air=cooled 4-stroke with common sump and trans can benefit from their use as well.

Auto oils with "friction modifiers" such as molybdenum disulfide are not suitable for wet clutches and can cause slippage. Multi-grade automotive oils without friction modifiers are safe for wet clutches, but will not hold viscosity as long as the 4T oils. They, too, come closer to "filling the bill" than oils with fms, but are still not optimum. Also, those modern bike engines have roller-bearing cranks and don't need extreme pressure additives.

I don't know the merits or drawbacks of having more detergent than necessary.

There may be better, if somewhat less readily available oils for Nortons than Mobil 1 V-twin 20W-50, but I'm not sure what they are or what their costs are. Castrol 20W-50 seems to rate highly in most tests. I've never been a fan of bean oil because of the varnish that it forms in the ring lands

I would not use a 10W-40 or any 4T in the Norton no matter what the rating. That's not what they are formulated for. And I see no benefit from using car oils or diesel oils in ANY motorcycle when there are fine oils available that are formulated specifically for motorcycle engines.
Click to expand...
 
Also, those modern bike engines have roller-bearing cranks and don't need extreme pressure additives.


Roller bearing crank -in a modern motorcycle engine???
Maybe a little motor or a Harley.
 
Indeed.

Do engine oils even need extreme pressure additives ?
Diff oils do.

And that stuff is death to engines if any finds its way there.
Thats why gearbox/diff oils are numbered differently....
 
comnoz said:
Ash in oil is normally related to the amount of detergent in the oil -
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.
Aero engine oils (piston engines) are high in detergent - and also need to be ashless.
Depends entirely on what additives are selected for the oil...

You can't exactly stop by the side of the road and clean off any deposit buildups in the combustion chambers etc in a plane.

Diesel oil isn't really required to be ashless, so they select the additives accordingly.
Keeps things pretty clean inside motorcycle engines, it must be said....
 
Rohan said:
comnoz said:
Ash in oil is normally related to the amount of detergent in the oil -
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.
Aero engine oils (piston engines) are high in detergent - and also need to be ashless.
Depends entirely on what additives are selected for the oil...

You can't exactly stop by the side of the road and clean off any deposit buildups in the combustion chambers etc in a plane.

Diesel oil isn't really required to be ashless, so they select the additives accordingly.
Keeps things pretty clean inside motorcycle engines, it must be said....
Click to expand...

Yeah, your right.

Ash is often used as a buffering compound that is normally part of the detergent package in oils that are not required to be ashless -like aircraft oil and pollution controlled diesel oil [both lube and fuel] which has reduced the ash content so as not to cause problems with the catalyst.

Ash can also be produced by oxidation of some detergents.

It has also been found to cause valve train wear when the levels are very high and diesel injection pump problems when the levels are very low.

Ash content is not normally a concern in a Norton. As a buffering compound it just helps weaken the acids that may cause damage to internal motor parts. When low ash is a requirement then other more expensive buffers can take there place. Jim
 
Thanks for that info. I try to learn something every day, so today was a good one.
 
I got a supply of Silkolene 15-50 oil so I did a basic heat test on it and four other oils I had here.
I baked the oil at 450 degrees and took samples at 6 hrs, 12hrs and 24 hours.
I ran viscosity tests comparing each sample to a new sample of the same oil.
I also did a light transmission test after the 24 hr period.

I like the results I got from the Silkolene enough that I plan on giving it a try in my bike.

I have to wonder why the V-twin oil always looses viscosity for a few hours and then gains it back. I saw this result a few years back when I did some testing also.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGOnV-cQKb0[/video]
 
comnoz said:
I have to wonder why the V-twin oil always looses viscosity for a few hours and then gains it back. I saw this result a few years back when I did some testing also.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGOnV-cQKb0[/video]
Click to expand...

That does sound strange. Perhaps they formulated it to thin and flow out of the highest-heat areas like the ring lands to be replaced by fresh lube. I've read speculative articles that sometime in the future, oil itself will become obsolete as a lubricant in internal combustion engines, and will be replaced by water. Thicker oil is much less effective as a coolant than thinner possibly due to differences in flow rates.
 
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