Another point of view on oils, ect

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xbacksideslider said:
So, no change in oil tank temp but CHT is 10 -15* cooler yet oil oxidizing sooner, so maybe cooled oil has higher viscosity that reduces flush/flow at the spring pockets.

I want to doubt that, so do we have references that plot oil viscosity against temp? Failing that, maybe a pyrometer at the spring pockets? What temps do you have, at CH and tank?

. . . . . . Easy for me in my arm chair, idle curiosity, I don't want to make work for you . . . . .
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I was seeing oil entering the head at around 170 degrees when the oil tank was at 250 degrees with the cooler in the overhead line.

Some time back I had a pyrometer in the spring pockets with the bike on the dyno and saw 470 degrees under load. That was before I put the cooler in the overhead line.

I doubt that the temp there has dropped much. I am wondering if the oil is simply staying there longer with less fresh oil to flush it out.

I know when I run the bike with the valve cover removed -there is noticeably less oil oozing out from the ends of the rocker shaft than I had seen in the past.

I am working on installing some more temperature monitors before the next trip.

I am wondering how much the extra flow of the lighter oil might help.
I may even try some holes in the rocker arm to get a little more flow through the spring seat area.

Just thoughts as of yet....
 
Drain back from the spring pockets, I assume, is already optimized.

That's a good drop, 250* to 170*, but no doubt it bounces back up a lot before it even gets to the spring pockets and once there, when it hits spring pockets that are 350* or more, that oil should be flowing just fine; especially a multi-grade. On the other hand, if it IS a flow issue, maybe your rocker bushings are too good? I do that all the time, spend time making stuff too good, fixing what ain't broke, . . . and then have to back up, dumb it down, and go back to OEM.


Relating to oil, presently, I like Redline 20W-50 for both the Norton and the KTM. Back when, I was running Wal-Mart 10-40 Syntech which was too thin but the local auto parts store had an overstock sale on Kendall "Titanium" 70W, which the label said was compounded for methanol dragracers, I was topping off, or adding a half quart of it to the Norton at each oil change, not that I had any way to know if that was a good idea or not; it did seem to cut the rate of oil loss.
 
xbacksideslider said:
Drain back from the spring pockets, I assume, is already optimized.

That's a good drop, 250* to 170*, but no doubt it bounces back up a lot before it even gets to the spring pockets and once there, when it hits spring pockets that are 350* or more, that oil should be flowing just fine; especially a multi-grade. On the other hand, if it IS a flow issue, maybe your rocker bushings are too good? I do that all the time, spend time making stuff too good, fixing what ain't broke, . . . and then have to back up, dumb it down, and go back to OEM.
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The rockers and shafts haven't changed for as long as I can remember.

But there is a large viscosity change in the oil between 170 and 250.

I am adding 4 more channels of datalogged thermocouples. That will help. Right now I only have two channels and only one of them is logged. Jim
 
In addition to the expensive best stuff (M1 V-twin or Fuchs), I would like to find a good, cheaper, off-the-shelf, big box store alternative for break-ins and my original bikes. With adequate levels of Zinc. Any ideas?
 
Valvoline vr1 racing oil would seem to fit your requirements. It does well in wear testing and is available just about anywhere in North America. Healthy amounts of ZDDP at 1200 ppm.
Some racers claim it holds oil pressure better than Mobil 1 and some other expensive oils. Jim's viscosity testing appears to support that so far.
I would really like to see how the straight 50 does with viscosity testing. It stayed in my Vincent very nicely in 100 degree f heat whereas the Pennsoil 20/50 turned to water.

It is available at Walmart, Napa and Amazon, $33 for a case of six. This is a synthetic blend (grey bottle) made for flat tappet non-catalytic engines. They also have a new full synthetic VR1(black bottle) don't know anything about it.

Glen
 
Alan Goldwater published test results of different oils in the Norton Owners Club of California. Specifically, he examined Golden Spectro, Mobil 1 and Red Line. The oil was submitted to Herguth Laboritories in Vallejo. He examined the thermal behaviour of the cylinder head, cylinder base, cam cover and engine oil intake. To summarize his findings, Red Line 20w/50 was determined to have superior properties than the other oils tested. Interestingly, the per cent oxidation of Red Line oil was 2 per cent after 1K miles; the others ranged from 100 to 33 per cent. Red Line oxidation rose to 37 per cent after 3K miles. Note: he also analyzed Fe, Al, Cu and B. Given his findings and the only study that I could find on the subject which was scientifically based, I have been using Red Line 20w/50 synthetic motorcycle oil in my bike (1974, 850 Norton Commando). I also change my engine oil every 1K miles (as well as the transmission oil). My thought is that while Red Line is fairly expensive engine oil, it is still relatively inexpensive compared to costly repairs. No doubt other brands of oil are just as good and I'm interested in Jim's findings using different brand(s) of oil. If any of you are interested, PM me and I can send you Goldwater's study in *.pdf format.

Cheers, Bryan
 
cNwRestomod said:
Red Line 20w/50 was determined to have superior properties than the other oils tested.
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At around $16/qt, it better be good.
 
cNwRestomod said:
Alan Goldwater published test results of different oils in the Norton Owners Club of California. Specifically, he examined Golden Spectro, Mobil 1 and Red Line. The oil was submitted to Herguth Laboritories in Vallejo. He examined the thermal behaviour of the cylinder head, cylinder base, cam cover and engine oil intake. To summarize his findings, Red Line 20w/50 was determined to have superior properties than the other oils tested. Interestingly, the per cent oxidation of Red Line oil was 2 per cent after 1K miles; the others ranged from 100 to 33 per cent. Red Line oxidation rose to 37 per cent after 3K miles. Note: he also analyzed Fe, Al, Cu and B. Given his findings and the only study that I could find on the subject which was scientifically based, I have been using Red Line 20w/50 synthetic motorcycle oil in my bike (1974, 850 Norton Commando). I also change my engine oil every 1K miles (as well as the transmission oil). My thought is that while Red Line is fairly expensive engine oil, it is still relatively inexpensive compared to costly repairs. No doubt other brands of oil are just as good and I'm interested in Jim's findings using different brand(s) of oil. If any of you are interested, PM me and I can send you Goldwater's study in *.pdf format.

Cheers, Bryan
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Specifically, Alan tested Mobil 1 auto oil instead of v-twin oil. I would like to see his result with V-twin oil as they react quite differently in my basic tests. Jim
 
comnoz said:
Specifically, Alan tested Mobil 1 auto oil instead of v-twin oil. I would like to see his result with V-twin oil as they react quite differently in my basic tests. Jim
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The late Gerry Bristow RIP had done 80,000+ miles on his Mk3 850 using "auto oil" Mobil 1 15W/50,
on a bike that he and his wife toured all around Europe on, engine reportedly never touched. (inside).
And as an ex-oil industry exec he claimed it to be the best stuff since sliced bread.
Although Death Valley touring in high summer was probably not on his itinerary....

If the v-twin stuff is better, then all the better.....

Specifically, how do they differ in your tests. ?
 
Auto M1 15w50 is often on sale at $23 per 5 quarts jugs (Walmart), which is a lot cheaper than V-twin or VR1 if servicing a lot of bikes.
Have also considered Rotella white jug which is 15w40, probably too thin and only a bit cheaper at $16 per 5 quarts.

It is amazing the amount of metal particles suspended in the oil on my machine which has had a recent top end job (pistons, rebuilt head).
Using a Liquidvac, I vacuum all the oil out of my tank if not planning to ride for more than a few weeks.

After letting it sit overnight, all the metal particles will stay in the bottom of the Liquidvac and you can reuse the top oil and rinse out the bottom particles with gasoline.

This has allowed me to re-use good quality oil until it turns too dark in color.
Alternatively, I guess I could install a good filter, however have not done so yet for sake of originality and I have been vacuuming out the oil rather often.


Another high end oil I would like to test is Pennzoil 25w50 racing oil which is highly rated for anti-wear and is cheap if bought in quantity:
https://www.amazon.com/Pennzoil-3623-12 ... B00B2IO58W
 
Found this Mobil1 Auto vs V-twin VOA comparison, both apparently done at the same time, same lab:

Silicon: M1 15W-50: 9ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50:10ppm
Boron: M1 15W-50: 228ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50: 188ppm
Sodium: M1 15W-50: 13ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50: 3ppm
Magnesium: M1 15W-50: 43ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50: 538ppm
Calcium: M1 15W-50: 2464ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50: 1899ppm
Phosphorus: M1 15W-50: 1193ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50: 1142ppm
Zinc: M1 15W-50: 1315ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50: 1352ppm
Molybdenum: M1 15W-50: 90ppm, M1 V-Twin 20W-50: 0ppm

Source:
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/engin ... win-2.html
and from Full Throttle magazine
 
Rohan said:
Specifically, how do they differ in your tests. ?
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The car version turned black much sooner with high temp soak -indicating oxidation.

The car oil also got thinner after heat soaking -which usually means the oil contains VI additive to boost the viscosity. VI additive is not a good choice for high temps.

I do run Mobile 1 car oil -in my car. Jim
 
elefantrider said:
Auto M1 15w50 is often on sale at $23 per 5 quarts jugs (Walmart), which is a lot cheaper than V-twin or VR1 if servicing a lot of bikes.
Have also considered Rotella white jug which is 15w40, probably too thin and only a bit cheaper at $16 per 5 quarts.
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Grey bottle VR1 racing oil ( the blend) regularly comes on sale at Napa and Walmart for 2.99 per quart, usually once per year.

As a promotion for the black bottle full Synthetic VR1, Valvoline recently had a rebate offer which cut the cost of a six pack of that oil from about $60 to zero!
Don't know if they will do that one again.

Glen
 
worntorn said:
As a promotion for the black bottle full Synthetic VR1, Valvoline recently had a rebate offer which cut the cost of a six pack of that oil from about $60 to zero!
Don't know if they will do that one again.

Glen
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Maybe that's why I can't find any full synthetic VR1 in this town.
 
There's none around here either, but lots of the Grey bottle VR1 in every viscosity.

Napa said the could order the full synthetic and have it here in a few days.

Glen
 
Be interesting to know how AeroShell oils would fare in this comparo ?

The semi-synthetic multigrade 15W/50 was nirvana for Lycoming and Continental engines, it meant that engines could get to their 2000 hours life without one or even 2 overhauls in between...
(1000 hours is VERY approx 150,000 miles. VERY approx, very much depends on usage).

http://www.shell.com/business-customers ... -w-50.jpeg

May not be very suitable for bikes though, as aero engines don't get idled around town,
so the anti-sludge additive package may be minimal.

(Aeroshell was very extensively advertised for bikes - in the 1930s. Not the same oil back then !!).
 
Since it doesn't look like I am going to stop the oil from oxidizing in my motor I decided what I needed to do was remove the oxidation along with water and small particles.

So here is my hydrophilic/hydrophobic nanoporous filter.
[That's technobabble for Franz bypass filter -or lubrifiner for the truck guys]

I am hoping this will keep the oil from getting thicker -which just makes the heat problem and resulting oxidation worse. I tested it by pumping the used oil from my last trip though it and in a single pass the viscosity was nearly back to a new sample- and it was nearly as clear as original.

Another point of view on oils, ect


Another point of view on oils, ect


A new element is available from anyone who sells toilet paper.....
It filters to between .5 and 1 micron.

Another point of view on oils, ect
 
Intriguing. Any idea how often the paper roll will need to be changed?

Ken
 
lcrken said:
Intriguing. Any idea how often the paper roll will need to be changed?

Ken
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Well many years ago when I used a Frantz filter on a car I changed it every 3000 miles.

This filter uses 1/2 roll of toilet paper and half as much oil. I will keep an eye on how much oil is bypassing but I think it should last 3000 miles.

When I pumped the 3 quarts from my bike through it the element got very black but it continued to flow. Jim
 
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