Another point of view on oils, ect

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worntorn said:
The 20/50 that was running thru the engine was a different brand,(I think Pennsoil) so it wasn't a perfect test.
I should try the same thing again starting out with VR1 20/50 then switching to the monograde VR1 50 weight.

Glen

AHh
Many conventional multi-vis oils are made with thin base stock with VI additive to thicken them up when the temp rises.

VI additives are fine for engines at lower temps like your water cooled grocery getter but in an air cooled motor the maximum temp of the additive is easily exceeded and additive fails.

Many good synthetics do not need to use VI additive as the base oil is capable of maintaining the same viscosity over a wide range of temps. Jim
 
I would be wary of full synthetic oils. Old bikes need ZDDP in the oil and I do not think synthetic oils have that additive.
 
Changaroo said:
I would be wary of full synthetic oils. Old bikes need ZDDP in the oil and I do not think synthetic oils have that additive.

Oh but they do, as long as it is not an emission controlled automotive oil.
I have used full synthetics for years. Jim
 
Changaroo said:
I would be wary of full synthetic oils. Old bikes need ZDDP in the oil and I do not think synthetic oils have that additive.

You should read the entire article. High zinc content is not necessarily a good thing. I am running Mobil 1 V-twin oil (as Jim C. has been) with no issues. Many new vehicles come with full synthetic from new. All the myths about synthetic oil have been debunked in common practice. Synthetics hold their viscosity longer, through more repeated heat cycles, and do not gas off like more volatile petroleum oils. From the paper;

"I’ve also tested ZDDPlus zinc additive in 3 low zinc oils, and I’ve tested Edelbrock Zinc additive in 3 different low zinc oils. In each case, the recommended amount of additive was used. And in all 6 cases, these high zinc additives ruined the oils and made them WORSE than they were before the extra zinc was added, by SIGNIFICANTLY reducing their wear protection capabilities. These additives did the opposite of what was promised. That is not surprising, because most major Oil Companies say to never add anything to their oils, because doing that will ruin the oil by upsetting the carefully balanced additive package that their Chemical Engineers designed into them. And that is precisely what was seen when using these high zinc additives."

8. 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM synthetic = 115,612 psi
zinc = 806 ppm
phosphorus = 812 ppm
moly = 66 ppm
calcium = 3,011 ppm
TBN = 10.3

So I'm not sure where you got your info about synthetics not containing zinc and old bikes needing it, but this would seem to refute that.
 
comnoz said:
That would indicate to me that the multi-vis oil is not handling the temp well.

comnoz said:
20 -50 and straight 50 should be the same viscosity at 100C. Jim

I wouldn't entirely take this for granted either, long term.

A certain maker of aircooled german flat twins published this oil temp chart a while back.
(before synthetics became commonplace, it must be said.
They had quite definite views on how well multigrades handled exposure to high temps, long term.
Another point of view on oils, ect


Its also notable that Nortons stopped recommending Castrol GTX 20w/50 back in the 1970s for high temps,
its in my Owners Manual that they recommend 40 wt for extended high temp riding, and 50 wt if its really hot. !
Perhaps they had riding in the Sahara in high summer in mind though...
 
Rohan said:
Its also notable that Nortons stopped recommending Castrol GTX 20w/50 back in the 1970s for high temps

You gotta know that 70s GTX 20W50 is not the same oil as today's GTX 20W50.
 
Has it improved or been degraded since then ??
With the requirements of catalytic convertors.
When did it actually change, and how ?

It was good stuff in watercooled engines back then....

Noting that Castrol don't actually own any oil refining capability. ( or didn't then).
They just buy in stuff and blend it and bottle it.
 
My guzzi - an air cooled twin, but I do realise Norton owners have additional problems - has used Mobil1 since I could first get it (only at ESSO stations back then). Motor has now done 160,000+ miles, and still does everything necessary.
The first thing I noticed when I first started using it was how much cooler the engine felt and how much smoother and happier it was running in high temps in the south of France, Typically 40+C.
A totally un neccessary stripdown (to adjust the squish on the Le Mans heads) showed everything OK and other than seals and gaskets, nothing was replaced. Cams and followers - often a point of wear in guzzi's were fine.

It was explained to me by an industry insider, that here in the UK at least, the crude from a well belonging to company A, goes to the nearest refinery, not transported extra miles to company A's refinery.
The output is then supplied to various purchasers who could be any of the other oil companies or oil packers/marketeers. It is then up to them to devise an additive package, supplied by one of the very small number of companies world wide who specialise in that sort of thing.

The wells and platforms, refineries, blending and packing plants may fly a particular company flag, but the product in the shop is just as likely to be a composite of many hands.
This is what I was told happens here, and it was a while ago, maybe in other countries laws on anti monopoly or the presence of a state monopoly may distort the free market model.

The point being that Castrol* are not producers in the find, extract and refine sense, but in the tricky and crucial bit of selecting and blending base stocks and devising/specifying additive packages they are.
*also Fuchs/Silkolene, Morris's and many other brands which adorn shelves in car and bike shops.
 
I have recently started using Millers 20/50 fully synthetic in a couple of my old clunkers. It claims to have a high ZDDP content. At £46 a gallon it's more expensive than the Morris 20/50 V Twin I have been using. I don't think we should get too carried away with all this though, because when someone finally develops an oil that cuts wear to zero, we'll all have nothing left to do. How boring will that be !!
 
Matchless said:
I don't think we should get too carried away with all this though, because when someone finally develops an oil that cuts wear to zero, we'll all have nothing left to do. How boring will that be !!

Indeed. As many have quoted, the quality of modern oils these days probably means you could put any reputable brand name in there, and it likely would be fine. (Within reason = *intended for motorcycle use, maybe?).

As others have said, oil has become a designer product...

I'd comment that Mobil have been making the same claims about their oils for many many decades,
If you look at old advertising slogans. I used to buy their 'Mobil Superdrop' label, and it said it would
keep my engine cool and clean and last forever....

How is that dyno test going of your non-balanced exhaust system ?
Cheers !
 
comnoz said:
worntorn said:
The 20/50 that was running thru the engine was a different brand,(I think Pennsoil) so it wasn't a perfect test.
I should try the same thing again starting out with VR1 20/50 then switching to the monograde VR1 50 weight.

Glen

AHh
Many conventional multi-vis oils are made with thin base stock with VI additive to thicken them up when the temp rises.

VI additives are fine for engines at lower temps like your water cooled grocery getter but in an air cooled motor the maximum temp of the additive is easily exceeded and additive fails.

Many good synthetics do not need to use VI additive as the base oil is capable of maintaining the same viscosity over a wide range of temps. Jim



What is the general consensus on oil change limits, how often (in miles)do you guys running full synthetic change it ? I know in a hotter climate it will probably be more, but just a ball park figure is fine.
sam
 
trident sam said:
What is the general consensus on oil change limits, how often (in miles) do you guys running full synthetic change
it ? I know in a hotter climate it will probably be more, but just a ball park figure is fine.
sam

I change the oil when it begins to look dark on the dipstick. The dark color is an indication of oxidation.

That usually ranges from about 2500 miles [like on my recent trip to Quincy in 100+ degree temps] to 6000 miles in moderate temperatures.
About the longest I have run Mobil 1 has been 8000 miles and it was starting to get thicker. Jim
 
comnoz said:
worntorn said:
I tried some Valvoline VR1 racing oil straight 50 when I was in the Montana/Wyoming August heat a couple of years ago. The bike had some other brand 20-50 in it on the ride down. As the heat went up the oil consumption went up and I also realized it was due for an oil change anyway.
Consumption dropped dramatically with the straight 50 weight. I went from using a quart in 700 miles to a few ounces in a thousand miles.
Got home and read up on the VR1 racing oil.
It seemed to be right for the old engines, lots of zddp and tested well in a couple of oil tests. It's not overly expensive and readily available when out touring (Napa)
I've been running the same stuff in 20-50 at cooler temps. Will switch back to the straight 50 when going into that 100 degree heat again.

Glen

That would indicate to me that the multi-vis oil is not handling the temp well.

20 -50 and straight 50 should be the same viscosity at 100C. Jim

So there are at least two phenomena I hear about, break down of oil (or its additives) and oil consumption. You can certainly have one without the other so when we speak about changing an oil and the consumption rate changes, what exactly is happening? As an example, I read in one of the reference articles that anti-foaming agents are more important (necessary) for certain (higher speed) engines.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
So there are at least two phenomena I hear about, break down of oil (or its additives) and oil consumption. You can certainly have one without the other so when we speak about changing an oil and the consumption rate changes, what exactly is happening? As an example, I read in one of the reference articles that anti-foaming agents are more important (necessary) for certain (higher speed) engines.

Lubricant breakdown is not as common as it was in the 70's and early 80's multi-vis oils.

Additive packages can break down and that is where a motorcycle specific or high temp diesel oil is good in a Norton.

The two things that mainly concern me with modern oils are oil consumption and oxidation in an engine with high metal temperatures like a Norton.

Oxidation is easy to see in an oil that is clear to start with. It just gets darker and thicker.

Oxidation in a heavily dyed oil is harder to see, most of the dyes used in oil break down quickly but do not mean the oil is seriously oxidized.

Oxidation of a modern oil also causes the oil to get thicker. Sometimes this is the best way to tell if a dyed oil is suffering from oxidation. [short of sending a sample for analysis] Jim
 
All good stuff Jim, but

worntorn said:
.................The bike had some other brand 20-50 in it on the ride down. As the heat went up the oil consumption went up and I also realized it was due for an oil change anyway.
Consumption dropped dramatically with the straight 50 weight. I went from using a quart in 700 miles to a few ounces in a thousand miles.

This does not infer breakdown of the oil, only change of oil type used.

I see two concepts in this thread, one is break down (or durability) of oil and the other is oil consumption. As worntorn stated, "As the heat went up, the oil consumption went up....."

I am just trying to understand exactly why the consumption went up or down. I doubt it is volatilization in the system since the oil tank and engine would fill with something like coal tar in quick order so the oil is getting into the combustion process and/or exhaust port. I am just trying to understand the exact phenomena. Maybe the oil if being destroyed (on the cylinder walls?) on its way out of the motor> You could probably call that oil break down in a way and it would not necessarily show up too quickly in the oil tank as one would be replenishing (topping off) with fresh oil rather quickly.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
All good stuff Jim, but

I am just trying to understand exactly why the consumption went up or down. I doubt it is volatilization in the system since the oil tank and engine would fill with something like coal tar in quick order so the oil is getting into the combustion process and/or exhaust port. I am just trying to understand the exact phenomena. Maybe the oil if being destroyed (on the cylinder walls?) on its way out of the motor> You could probably call that oil break down in a way and it would not necessarily show up too quickly in the oil tank as one would be replenishing (topping off) with fresh oil rather quickly.

A good oil will maintain its viscosity as the temp rises -to a point. Above that point the oil will become thinner and more likely to find it's way into the chamber. That point varies from one oil to another.

What I would like to see is a graph of oil viscosity between 100C and the vaporization point of the oil. In an aircooled motor I would consider that important.

There is no doubt that some of the oil is vaporized in the really hot spots like the ring lands and exhaust spring pockets. I doubt that this accounts for much loss -but that is where you normally see the heaviest buildups of burned oil.
 
Bonus day today, Tesco own brand 5W-40 fully synthetic on offer at £13.00 for 4 litres, just emptied the shelf in Winchester this morning. I have been using it for years, came across it when looking for some Mobil 1 and noticed that the spec of the Tesco own brand was higher due to the Mobil one struggling with the the latest EU regs at the time. Runs cooler, uses very little oil and have had no debris on the magnetic sump plug for 6 years.
 
Madnorton said:
Bonus day today, Tesco own brand 5W-40 fully synthetic on offer at £13.00 for 4 litres, just emptied the shelf in Winchester this morning. I have been using it for years, came across it when looking for some Mobil 1 and noticed that the spec of the Tesco own brand was higher due to the Mobil one struggling with the the latest EU regs at the time. Runs cooler, uses very little oil and have had no debris on the magnetic sump plug for 6 years.

That would have to be Mobil 1 car oil if it is dealing with the EU regs.

Mobil 1 v-twin oil is a completely different animal. Jim
 
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