Another point of view on oils, ect

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I thought I'd weigh in on the oil 'debate'. Alan Goldwater of the Norton Owners Club of Northern California published an article, Temperature and Lubrication of the Norton Motorcycle Engine, which was last revised on 5/27/12. The article compares oil performance for Golden Spectro, Mobil 1 and Redline, all of which are synthetic. The different brands of oil were analyzed at Herguth Laboratories in Vallejo, CA so his results are scientifically based. Specifically, after 1K miles, the brands were tested for ppm of iron, aluminum, copper, boron and per cent oxidation. I would think that a lot of the forum members would have come across the article. The results indicated that Redline Motorcycle oil (synthetic 20/50) was a superior oil. He went further and tested Redline at 3K miles for the analyses and it was still superior to the other brands tested. If you are unable to find the article, send me an email and I'd be happy to send it to you as an attachment. As a result of the analyses, I have been using this oil for the past year or so. Thoughts from the forum members appreciated.
 
Just out of curiosity, what is the price spread among the three oils?
 
cNwRestomod said:
I thought I'd weigh in on the oil 'debate'. Alan Goldwater of the Norton Owners Club of Northern California published an article, Temperature and Lubrication of the Norton Motorcycle Engine, which was last revised on 5/27/12. The article compares oil performance for Golden Spectro, Mobil 1 and Redline, all of which are synthetic. The different brands of oil were analyzed at Herguth Laboratories in Vallejo, CA so his results are scientifically based. Specifically, after 1K miles, the brands were tested for ppm of iron, aluminum, copper, boron and per cent oxidation. I would think that a lot of the forum members would have come across the article. The results indicated that Redline Motorcycle oil (synthetic 20/50) was a superior oil. He went further and tested Redline at 3K miles for the analyses and it was still superior to the other brands tested. If you are unable to find the article, send me an email and I'd be happy to send it to you as an attachment. As a result of the analyses, I have been using this oil for the past year or so. Thoughts from the forum members appreciated.
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Last time I looked, Alan had not tested the Mobil 1 v-twin oil.

I think Redline oil is a very good oil, I have not tried the Redline motorcycle specific oil but I did try the regular Redline racing oil a few years ago. The oil consumption was higher than with Mobil 1 v-twin.

I think you can get any of these three oils at around 12 to 15 dollars a quart.
I picked up a 6 pack of Mobil 1 at the NAPA in Quincy for $81.00. Jim
 
Jim,

Given the relative price of oil compared to all of the other 'bits' that I have had Matt (and you develop - machining of my Fullauto head, valve springs, breather, head steady, etc.) put on my bike, oil is cheap by comparison. As a result, I change my engine oil, filter and transmission oil every 1000 miles. Frequent changing like I do is probably not needed but it isn't doing any harm either. Oil consumption on my bike is negligible, no doubt because I change the oil so frequently. I have also changed the transmission oil to a 50:50 blend of Castrol and Lucas synthetic.

Cheers, Bryan
 
comnoz said:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

He spends so much time telling you how good his info is that I was waiting for the "price" for the info.
But then he lists a lot of what looks like good information.
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What a dreadfully written article!

What on Earth is the point in all the repetition? And the capital letter shouting (FACTS not MYTH!)




.
 
O'Reilly's regularly runs sales on Mobil 1 V-twin oil (as well as their 10W-40 4T, which I use in the ZX-14) for around $9/qt. Redline is only available online here and is pretty spendy at around $13/qt. last time I saw any, which is what the bike shops get for the Mobil 1.
 
Back in the early '70s when I first started racing Nortons, Axtell showed me the results of oil tests he had done at a local (Glendale, CA) oil company lab, and said that based on the results he used a Kendall 50W oil. It was in a gold can, and I think it was called GT, and was pretty popular at the time with the flat track crowd. Towards the end of the '70s, or maybe early '80s, he switched to Red Line synthetics, and so did I. In 1980 or '81 he was doing the engine development for Yamaha's v-twin powered flat track effort, based on the XV750 engine, and was having trouble with wear on the rocker arms. He tried hard chrome and electroless nickel coatings on the rockers with no luck, but finally solved the problem by going to Red Line race oils. I've used Red Line 50W race oil (which is actually a multigrade 15W50) in my Norton race bikes ever since. In the street bikes, I used to use Red Line motorcycle 20W50, but now I mostly use Rotella diesel oil. I don't ride enough any more to put high mileage on the bikes, and I don't ride in the kind of 100F+ temperatures that Jim seems to like :lol:, which might explain wiy I haven't seen any oil-related problems.

In the distant past, I also tried other oils in the race bikes, including the original Mobil 1 (automotive), Torco 20W50, Valvoline 20W50, and probably some other brands, and all seemed to work OK. Back then, they all had plenty of zinc additive in them. In "normal" riding conditions, I don't think Commandos are really all that fussy about oil, as long as it is the right rating and grade, and has reasonable zinc additive.

On the other hand, if I was riding cross country regularly, with heavy loads, high speeds, and extreme temperatures like Jim has been, I might be more concerned about oil choices.

Just another old guy going on about the old days.

Ken
 
comnoz said:
SteveA said:
comnoz said:
Mobil 1 v-twin oil is a completely different animal. Jim
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But not available in Europe.

You can get Mobil 1 15w40 motorcycle specific!
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Well that's a surprise. Guess you must have fewer HDs plu - er motoring about on the roads over there.

I'm not sure how Mobil 1 motorcycle oil would compare to the v-twin oil. Likely considerably lighter in weight since most modern motorcycles are water cooled.

Since UK doesn't normally see too many 38 degree days it may work well anyway. Jim
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Jim, my mistake, it is 15w50 not 15w40. I purchased some recently, it seems to be the nearest thing I can easily get to the V twin oil. Available in UK and France, which has a higher percentage of 38 degree days the further south you go!

I got this link from Snotzo:

http://www.realclassic.co.uk/techfiles/oil030319.html

An old article by Gerry Bristow who I understand some of you are familiar with, that refers to the use of the 15w50 in a Commando.
 
lcrken said:
Back in the early '70s when I first started racing Nortons, Axtell showed me the results of oil tests he had done at a local (Glendale, CA) oil company lab, and said that based on the results he used a Kendall 50W oil. It was in a gold can, and I think it was called GT, and was pretty popular at the time with the flat track crowd. Towards the end of the '70s, or maybe early '80s, he switched to Red Line synthetics, and so did I. In 1980 or '81 he was doing the engine development for Yamaha's v-twin powered flat track effort, based on the XV750 engine, and was having trouble with wear on the rocker arms. He tried hard chrome and electroless nickel coatings on the rockers with no luck, but finally solved the problem by going to Red Line race oils. I've used Red Line 50W race oil (which is actually a multigrade 15W50) in my Norton race bikes ever since. In the street bikes, I used to use Red Line motorcycle 20W50, but now I mostly use Rotella diesel oil. I don't ride enough any more to put high mileage on the bikes, and I don't ride in the kind of 100F+ temperatures that Jim seems to like :lol:, which might explain wiy I haven't seen any oil-related problems.

In the distant past, I also tried other oils in the race bikes, including the original Mobil 1 (automotive), Torco 20W50, Valvoline 20W50, and probably some other brands, and all seemed to work OK. Back then, they all had plenty of zinc additive in them. In "normal" riding conditions, I don't think Commandos are really all that fussy about oil, as long as it is the right rating and grade, and has reasonable zinc additive.

On the other hand, if I was riding cross country regularly, with heavy loads, high speeds, and extreme temperatures like Jim has been, I might be more concerned about oil choices.

Just another old guy going on about the old days.

Ken
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Not sure if they even make Kendall GT 50W oil anymore, but it's been years since I saw any on a store shelf.
 
What's in your pocket?

Another point of view on oils, ect
 
Thanks Jim that's a great shot! We had a great time and want to say thanks, you always have time to share your knowledge and time with us. We are truly lucky to have a guy like yourself. Keep up the great work and video's too. Finally got the camera to work lol lol sounded like I had some dirt in the lens.
 
Seems as though everyone is an expert on oil and yet there is so much conflicting information. What makes us all "experts" is really what we, the layman, decide to take away from information offered by other said experts. ZDDP good,,, ZDDP bad,,, ZDDP makes no difference, pick one.

The article from Real Classic about oil for example states;

"There is also Mobil 1 15w-50, which is intended for cars, and is to SJ specification. As most of the motorcycle specific oils on the market are simply relabelled car oil, I'm not bothered about this and after using it for some 5 years in my Commando I'm very pleased with the results."

After all we've heard about the big differences between moto specific vs car oil, this,,, and from an "expert". And BTW Mobile 1 auto oil 15w-50 is now carries an SN rating not SJ. Pete
 
I'm no petroleum engineer, but I don't understand why anyone would use diesel oil in a motorcycle when there are oils specifically blended for motorcycle use. Unless, of course, you have a diesel motorcycle. I know some folks are too cheap to buy something intended for their machine when they can get something they think will do that's cheaper.

This reminds me of the helmet debate. I still believe if you have a cheap head, get a cheap helmet. Some will swear cheap is good enough. Oil, and to a lesser extent, electronics and metallurgy are responsible for how long modern engines last compared to those of the past. Second-guessing that advancement is a crap shoot.
 
Danno said:
I'm no petroleum engineer, but I don't understand why anyone would use diesel oil in a motorcycle when there are oils specifically blended for motorcycle use. Unless, of course, you have a diesel motorcycle. I know some folks are too cheap to buy something intended for their machine when they can get something they think will do that's cheaper.

This reminds me of the helmet debate. I still believe if you have a cheap head, get a cheap helmet. Some will swear cheap is good enough. Oil, and to a lesser extent, electronics and metallurgy are responsible for how long modern engines last compared to those of the past. Second-guessing that advancement is a crap shoot.
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Actually, many diesel oils are more expensive than motorcycle oils. Jim
 
Danno said:
I'm no petroleum engineer, but I don't understand why anyone would use diesel oil in a motorcycle when there are oils specifically blended for motorcycle use. Unless, of course, you have a diesel motorcycle. I know some folks are too cheap to buy something intended for their machine when they can get something they think will do that's cheaper.
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Perhaps its worth commenting that 'diesel oil' is not just for diesels - if you read the side of the can (or the spec sheets) it is also rated for use in heavy duty petrol/gasoline engines.
ie big clearance hot running highly loaded low revving engines, and without any catalytic considerations.
And with lots of detergent, to keep things clean inside - and with anti-rust additives.

= Perfect for older motorcycle engines !!
 
I remember seeing that Rotella synthetic 5w40's test rating was not very good on one of the websites. I forget if it was pressure or zinc or a combination of both. I have used it in one of my 7L roller cam V8 engines making 450HP but will probably change it for something else at the next opportunity.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Ha! Blows that theory. :D

There has been some very good information posted on this thread.
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It's not a theory, it's a fact. And the fact that some diesel oils cost more than some bike oils does not change it one whit.

And just because something costs more does not make it better for a particular purpose.

It's your logic that blows.

I know people who use 10W40 Rotella T6 synthetic diesel oil because it's cheaper than 10W40 Mobil 1 4T and somehow believe it is just as good when tests such as the one cited at the beginning of this thread clearly show it isn't. And just because you can get away with something, it doesn't mean that's the best you can do.

I have read that diesel oils are higher in ash content than automotive or motorcycle-specific oils. Although I don't know why, the lubrication engineers who formulate oils must have a reason for that that pertains to use in diesel engines and not car or bike engines, so rather than pretend I am smarter than they are, I defer to their judgement. You are free to pour whatever kind of cheap crap you want into your oil tank.
 
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