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Sounds like a set of these could be the very thing then!
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... Post384679
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... Post384679
Amal Premire Carbs
- Thread starter bwolfie
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john robert bould said:
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant it probably would not be good for an extra 200 miles :wink: In fact, instead of becoming loose as gooses, they will probably bind and stick wide open... I wonder if they tested these carbs with ethanol :?: WTF am am saying "testing" and Amal can't be in the same phrase :roll:
Jean
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ebsbury said:
Do you have some commercial links with the factory in China who makes the Amal carbs for Burlen I wonder? You seem to be just about the only person on here who thinks this rubbish should be regarded seriously for anything other use on an AR or show type bike, so maybe you are indeed involved commercially?
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ebsbury said:
I wonder are you now suggesting production of Amal carbs has now returned to the UK, after it had been relocated to China, with greatly reduced unit costs? There have been a few Amal features in UK magazines, showing a rather scruffy workshop, with photos of what looks like 1930s test equipment, and inclusive of early Amal technical data sheets, none of which offers any advice on how to tune a carb which is badly worn, but strangely no mention of the new tooling that has been installed in the Chinese factory, which should improve quality to some extent.
But wonder how much more expensive tooling to die cast aluminium, would have been over that needed for pot metal? Might have been a great deal more expensive and simply not viable commercially, but the finished product would have been far superior to the carbs being made at the moment, and would have been fit for purpose on bikes which are actually used on a regular basis.
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I would think the Chinese could produce a die to produce alloy bodies at the "right" price :!: Three /four dims machine centre's can easly produce dies. Check out the work perfomed by these 4 ax C.N.N machines on the tube. Putting some figures here...if it took three months to produce a die...i bet thats only 3-4 grand?
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john robert bould said:
Yes you would have thought so, but seemingly the 900 series carbs which are supposedly being made in China with brand new tooling, are still pot metal, so it must have been cheaper to stick with the dies for pot metal! Commercially though probably a very good idea staying with pot metal, as sales of carbs and parts would reduce drastically if they didnt wear out quite as quickly!
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john robert bould said:
What some of you don't understand is that in the classic restoration business the idea is to replicate the original part, regardless of flaws. It's only the sub-set of Norton owners who have tolerance for non-standard parts. Unfortunately that sub-set is a bunch of whiny little bitches who think they know everything about everything. You're trying to improve a really old bike into a really old, slightly faster bike. Good for you.
1. Yes, Amals are still made they used to be. Believe it or not that is the way a lot of the customers want them. Those customers are smart enough to restore the old bikes and not try to extract more power out of something that was designed before dirt was invented. Glad you know more about Amal's business than they do. You're a winner. :roll:
2. Yes, there are better alternatives. Got that. No need to shit on every Amal thread with a reminder. :|
3. It's awesome that Amal is coming out with improvements that don't alter the appearance of their carburetors yet should make them work better. Don't think that's enough. See #3.
For the rest of you, thank you for your comments.
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Wonder why making Amal carbs out of the correct material, should in any way alter the appearance to the extent the ARs would take issue with it? This is a bit like saying you have to make tyres out of the same rubber compound used in the 1970s, as use of a modern compound which works far better and appears exactly the same, wouldnt agree with AR NOC types!
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In the recent past you have told us that Concentric carbs are made on worn out tooling - which they are not, were copied from Mikunis - which they are not, have a high percentage of lead in their composition - which they don't, and now that they are made in China - which they are not. You don't have to be involved in Amal carburetters commercially. All the facts are available online - if you care to look! Otherwise people will think that you don't know what you are talking about.
If you are interested to know why Concentric carburetters are made from Mazak you had better contact the manufacturers. Their e-mail address is info@burlen.co.uk.
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I would suggest that if the Amal 900 series carbs are not made in China, that you put something on the Amal web site to clarify where thay are made, as the general view of people in the UK competition world is that these carbs are of Chinese origin.
As for carbs not being made using worn out tooling, this is plainly ridiculous as the capital cost of replacing badly worn original tools, would mean this was not commercially viable. I would guess that some tooling has been replaced though, and it would make good sense to have this made in the same country thats doing the die-casting (China, Taiwan or former Soviet countries possibly?)
The original design of the "Concentric" carb apes almost exactly the layout of the earlier and far more effective VM Mikuni, with the only changes being made to the shape of the die-castings required to reduce the cost of tooling needed.
The reason Amal carbs are made out of completely inappropriate pot metal has been explained in an earlier post on this thread, and as rapid wear has been a problem with these carbs for many years, I would guess the continued use of pot metal also has something to do with selling more carbs and parts to replace those which have worn out.
However as its well known that Amal carbs wear out very quickly, it seems to me far easier to fit modern fit for purpose parts, than mess around with sleeving, brass slides, rub off wonder coatings, etc etc, that all seem to be part and parcel of using Amal carburetion for any length of time on a bike thats used regularly. The results of fitting modern carburetion are outlined in many posts on here, but strangely nothing at all about the need for lining, micky mouse coatings, or different slides, on these carbs!
As for carbs not being made using worn out tooling, this is plainly ridiculous as the capital cost of replacing badly worn original tools, would mean this was not commercially viable. I would guess that some tooling has been replaced though, and it would make good sense to have this made in the same country thats doing the die-casting (China, Taiwan or former Soviet countries possibly?)
The original design of the "Concentric" carb apes almost exactly the layout of the earlier and far more effective VM Mikuni, with the only changes being made to the shape of the die-castings required to reduce the cost of tooling needed.
The reason Amal carbs are made out of completely inappropriate pot metal has been explained in an earlier post on this thread, and as rapid wear has been a problem with these carbs for many years, I would guess the continued use of pot metal also has something to do with selling more carbs and parts to replace those which have worn out.
However as its well known that Amal carbs wear out very quickly, it seems to me far easier to fit modern fit for purpose parts, than mess around with sleeving, brass slides, rub off wonder coatings, etc etc, that all seem to be part and parcel of using Amal carburetion for any length of time on a bike thats used regularly. The results of fitting modern carburetion are outlined in many posts on here, but strangely nothing at all about the need for lining, micky mouse coatings, or different slides, on these carbs!
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I have had my Mk1 concentrics on my Commando for about 15,000 miles now fitted with chrome slides from new and guess what they are not worn and the bike idles like a clock as it always has done, the only issue I have had is one idle jet got plugged with stale fuel but that was easily fixed and the fix will be even easier on these new carbs if that should happen. Amal carbs are simple to work on and any fool should be able to set them up to work well, yes there are far more advanced designs out there made from wonderful materials and if you want to fit them and all the different aircleaners, plumbing etc on the Commando you don't own thats fine but I and many others are more than happy with our "worn out, high lead content, made in China, unfit for purpose Amals. Opinions are like Ars****es, everyone has one and everyone thinks everyone else's stink and as we can see some stink more than others. I think you have made your point you dont like Amal carbs but unfortunately you don't back any of your statements with any fact just words like "I would suggest" "general view" "I would guess" etc.Carbonfibre said:
I shall continue to enjoy the simplicity of my Amal carbs and when they do eventually wear out I will go and buy another pair if they are hopefully still in business making parts to a niche market like this.
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Wow, once again you people amaze me. I started a thread spreading the news of an all in one updated existing product, and once again it has been blown out of proportion. Yes there are "better" carbs out there. Yet thery are made out of "better" materials. Who cares, if you don't like them, don't buy them. For those of us that do, good for us. Please stop wasting our time with your know it all whining. It's getting old.
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swooshdave said:
Dave .I suppose your bike is 100% as it left the factory?
No resleeved brake slave,or electonic sparks for you Dave?
Perhaps "we" here in England should just leave you lads alone with our "Sub-set" ideas. After all we [In England] made the things in the first place.
I remember when Commandos where two a penny.just to go to work on. my mate sold his for £50.and bought some LINE dancing gear....Another US idea!
Regarding Amal, there is no such company,it's like Lucas...no such company..just a company picking up trade under the brand name...I bet the New carbs dont have ENGLAND cast on the side..i have seen SPAIN cast on...but not CHINA....yet....Why that would'nt be original..would it?
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Hi Dave, Sub-set Norton owner here,,,,,
as much as I like my Mk3 standard, I also ride it.
I had to re machine the cylinder and head as they were not machined even remotely flat,
The cam had worn out,
The thing leaked oil,
had a crap bearing in the gearbox,
the discs were chromed,
the front disc didn't work,
the ignition was not good,
the carbs were worn out at 12k miles,
etc,'etc,,,,,,,
I didn't do any of these things to go faster, I have other bikes for that, and some of them are older than the Mk3.
I did it so I could actually use it and enjoy it.
I did keep all the original worn out bits for the next owner if the want to experience the joys of a failing British manufacturer.
I'll happily be a Sub-set winger and actually use it as it was intended.
Graeme
as much as I like my Mk3 standard, I also ride it.
I had to re machine the cylinder and head as they were not machined even remotely flat,
The cam had worn out,
The thing leaked oil,
had a crap bearing in the gearbox,
the discs were chromed,
the front disc didn't work,
the ignition was not good,
the carbs were worn out at 12k miles,
etc,'etc,,,,,,,
I didn't do any of these things to go faster, I have other bikes for that, and some of them are older than the Mk3.
I did it so I could actually use it and enjoy it.
I did keep all the original worn out bits for the next owner if the want to experience the joys of a failing British manufacturer.
I'll happily be a Sub-set winger and actually use it as it was intended.
Graeme
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I dont think people are getting the point of this thread at all............."Amal" are having carbs manufactured either in the Far East or former soviet countries as cheaply as they possibly can, which results in a product which wears out very quickly and is inferior to parts made by reputable manufacturers.
While end users are still prepared to accept these sub standard parts, and mess around with sleeving them and or paying extra for properly made slides to slow down the wear rate, "Amal" will continue to get the carbs made for the lowest possible price, and they will continue wearing out fast!
Seems astonishing that users/buyers will come out with all sorts of ridiculous excuses to justify this, with some seeming quite happy to put up with poor quality, purely and simply to increase the margins of those marketing these products.
While end users are still prepared to accept these sub standard parts, and mess around with sleeving them and or paying extra for properly made slides to slow down the wear rate, "Amal" will continue to get the carbs made for the lowest possible price, and they will continue wearing out fast!
Seems astonishing that users/buyers will come out with all sorts of ridiculous excuses to justify this, with some seeming quite happy to put up with poor quality, purely and simply to increase the margins of those marketing these products.
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Reading this thread reminds me of my old friend Gordon Jennings and his adventures with his 1973 Ducati GT 750. Gordon's Ducati came stock with Amal 930 carbs, and Gordon wanted to replace them with "modern" Mikuni VM 30mm carbs, for the same reasons many of us today have stated. As the then technical editor of Cycle magazine, Gordon had access to a lot of support that many consumers didn't in the early 70s. I remember talking with several Mikuni engineers about selecting carb size and metering parts who had worked with Gordon on his Ducati Mikuni carb conversion project, I believe they were interested in marketing a kit at the time. Gordon did testing/development with a vehicle mounted exhaust gas analyzers, he got some dyno time and did quite a bit of testing at the drag strip. Gordon got a lot of input from Jess Thomas, another one of Cycle's editors during that time frame, and if my memory serves me correctly I think the then Cycle magazine editor Cook Nelson made a lot of the drag strip runs on Gordon's Ducati to give him feedback. Bottom line is their effort was well resourced.
After allot of effort and time my recollection was that they were never able to match the Amal dyno or drag strip numbers with the Mikuni setup. Although the dyno and drag strip numbers weren't better, the general consensus was that the ride- ability was better. For several years Gordon's Ducati Amal/Mikuni adventure was an additional source of material for the other Cycle editors to tease Gordon about. In retrospect Gordon Jennings and the others involved in the effort came to the conclusion that as installed the VM 30mm Mikuni didn't flow as well as the 930 Amal. The general consensus was that when you do a carb change like that, you end up having to change so many things that often time you cant make an equivalent comparison.
My final 2 cents worth is that if your objective is a stock motorcycle, obviously you have to have stock carbs. Given the definition of original is "The parts it left the factory with in the same state they left the factory in" than it can only be original once. When we are talking early 70s Norton Commandos, unless you are doing a museum piece, original is not necessarily good. If you want stock where it came from doesn't matter as much as how it works. I am in the process of restoring a 71 Roadster and building a 68 R replica. I want these bikes to be as stock as possible but given that they are more than 40 years old and many of the parts are out of production; it matters not who made the parts only how well you can get them to work. Given the nature of the original Commandos it is not practical or in many cases possible to leave them completely stock. An example is the frames that 68 Rs left the factory with, which is why I am using a 69/70 frame for my R project.
If these Premier Amal carbs work better and last longer, than they are the way to go for stock Commandos, if they don't than the market will give them what they deserve.
After allot of effort and time my recollection was that they were never able to match the Amal dyno or drag strip numbers with the Mikuni setup. Although the dyno and drag strip numbers weren't better, the general consensus was that the ride- ability was better. For several years Gordon's Ducati Amal/Mikuni adventure was an additional source of material for the other Cycle editors to tease Gordon about. In retrospect Gordon Jennings and the others involved in the effort came to the conclusion that as installed the VM 30mm Mikuni didn't flow as well as the 930 Amal. The general consensus was that when you do a carb change like that, you end up having to change so many things that often time you cant make an equivalent comparison.
My final 2 cents worth is that if your objective is a stock motorcycle, obviously you have to have stock carbs. Given the definition of original is "The parts it left the factory with in the same state they left the factory in" than it can only be original once. When we are talking early 70s Norton Commandos, unless you are doing a museum piece, original is not necessarily good. If you want stock where it came from doesn't matter as much as how it works. I am in the process of restoring a 71 Roadster and building a 68 R replica. I want these bikes to be as stock as possible but given that they are more than 40 years old and many of the parts are out of production; it matters not who made the parts only how well you can get them to work. Given the nature of the original Commandos it is not practical or in many cases possible to leave them completely stock. An example is the frames that 68 Rs left the factory with, which is why I am using a 69/70 frame for my R project.
If these Premier Amal carbs work better and last longer, than they are the way to go for stock Commandos, if they don't than the market will give them what they deserve.
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[quote="ando". Not only is the wear property of the material high No wonder the british bike industry got such a bad name when they chose to save a couple of pennies per bike by using inferior materials.
ando[/quote]
I don't car which Bike/car manufacturer you talk about, they ALL ‘spoil their ship for ‘halfpence worth of tar!’
ando[/quote]
I don't car which Bike/car manufacturer you talk about, they ALL ‘spoil their ship for ‘halfpence worth of tar!’
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GRM 450 said:
I had to re machine the cylinder and head as they were not machined even remotely flat,.....Perhaps someone didn’t torque the head down correctly?
the discs were chromed,............a bad move by the factory,This was done on cast iron discs which tended to rust before your eyes!
the carbs were worn out at 12k miles, .............if you run wirhout air cleaners and don't Lubricate the slides with silicone spray , what do you expert?
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