1967 P11 Basket Case w/Frame issues...

Longtimegone · Mar 7, 2022

I'd like to get the bike going again in memory of my beloved brother-in-law, who owned it for 50 years. The frame issues must have been what caused him to quit riding it around 1976. My guess is, the hole in the lower left down tube might have been caused by striking something; and an attempt to patch it failed, with only a big lump of weld material remaining. Also note the two tabs I've circled. Looking at the photo, the one on the right is hard to see because it is been over; but both are welded on, and both have a semi-circular profile. Just below the one on the left you can see where another tab was welded and subsequently broke off, leaving a small rectangular-shaped hole. I'm thinking someone fit a center stand at one time, and this is all that is left. But I also noticed there doesn't appear to be a lug for a side stand anywhere, and I see plenty of photos of P11s with side stands. How do they attach? I'd appreciate a photo if you have one. And of course, any leads on getting my frame repaired are welcome. Are there sources for tubing with properties similar to 531? Anybody out there have a bad P11 frame with a good left downtube? Thanks!

Derek Wilson · Mar 8, 2022

The P11 uses the same bolt-on side stand lug as the Atlas - it is not welded to the frame. The side stand itself is specific to the P11.

Ron L · Mar 12, 2022

Derek Wilson said:
The P11 uses the same bolt-on side stand lug as the Atlas - it is not welded to the frame. The side stand itself is specific to the P11.

Actually the side stand and bracket is the same as Atlas. The only difference is the P11 lug uses a stud and a bolt rather than two studs due to clearance issues. There were thicker legs used on the later bikes, but that applied to both Atlas and P11.

This is the Atlas stand. The upper stud (16374) and nut is replaced by a 3/8-26 bolt for P11.

This is not my photo, but you can see where the stand mounts.

Ron L · Mar 12, 2022

Longtimegone said:
I'd like to get the bike going again in memory of my beloved brother-in-law, who owned it for 50 years. The frame issues must have been what caused him to quit riding it around 1976. My guess is, the hole in the lower left down tube might have been caused by striking something; .......

More likely the hole was caused by an attempt at stick welding a side stand lug to the Reynolds 531 tubing. These frames should only be gas brazed with SifBronze (or similar) filler or alternatively TIG brazed with care to not overheat the tube. Reynolds 531 (like 4130 chromoly) gets brittle if overheated.

Longtimegone · Mar 12, 2022

Thank you. That parts diagram helps a bunch. I hate to loose the matching numbers, but this frame is probably toast. Activity is on hold until a replacement is found; and if I'm that lucky, maybe it will even come with a stand. Thanks again! Dave

EstuaryBoy · Mar 13, 2022

Ron L said:
Actually the side stand and bracket is the same as Atlas. The only difference is the P11 lug uses a stud and a bolt rather than two studs due to clearance issues. There were thicker legs used on the later bikes, but that applied to both Atlas and P11.

I was under the impression that the P11 leg was longer than that of the Atlas?

When I ordered a 'replica' from Norvil (probably 30+ years ago) an argument ensued as the leg originally sent was too short, a hard fought for replacement was longer and worked fine......

Mind you, to muddy the waters even further, the last Norvil catalogue I have lists P11 and featherbed stands under the same part number, but P11a different, whereas the factory parts list shows 650ss different to Atlas and early/later variants for Atlas/P11

mdt-son · Mar 13, 2022

Longtimegone said:
My guess is, the hole in the lower left down tube might have been caused by striking something; and an attempt to patch it failed, with only a big lump of weld material remaining. < ....> And of course, any leads on getting my frame repaired are welcome.

You could try a bicycle frame builder, like Vernon Barker Cycles, who builds vintage looking frames using Renolds 531 tubing.
Otherwise, you may have to ship your frame to England for repair. Dresda, Malarky Engineering, Mojo Motorbikes are a few addresses you may ask for help, but there is a handful of others. Replica Norton Manx Featherbed frames are brazed.

- Knut

Ron L · Mar 13, 2022

EstuaryBoy said
"I was under the impression that the P11 leg was longer than that of the Atlas?"

There was a certain aftermarket supplier that supplied a longer leg that he said was original, but for my P11's the standard Atlas length is correct. I believe the two part numbers in the manuals refer to the thicker leg offered on both Atlas and P11A models.

Schwany · Mar 13, 2022

Eurotrash Jambalaya sells a longer side stand for P11, P11A and G85. Also has a shorter side stand for the Atlas Dominator for half the price. Maybe he is the certain aftermarket supplier.

cjandme · Mar 13, 2022

mdt-son said:
You could try a bicycle frame builder, like Vernon Barker Cycles, who builds vintage looking frames using Renolds 531 tubing.
Otherwise, you may have to ship your frame to England for repair. Dresda, Malarky Engineering, Mojo Motorbikes are a few addresses you may ask for help, but there is a handful of others. Replica Norton Manx Featherbed frames are brazed.

- Knut

That's an excellent Idea, there is a fella in B.C. Canada named Paul Brodie. He is a "retired" Frame Builder and fabricator, mostly Bicycle (he does outstandingly beautiful work) but he is a Motorcycle guy too and he might just help with that, he might look at it as material for an episode for his YouTube channel. worth a shot and much closer than Jolly Old England. Cj

cjandme · May 13, 2022

Hello longtimegone, you maybe in luck here. I've been in contact with Mr. Paul Brodie and he is open to the idea of fixing your frame. I suppose I should send you a P. M. about it. He's located in Vancouver, so a good deal closer than across the Atlantic. Anyway pm coming your way. Cj

Junglebiker · May 13, 2022

The same Paul Brodie who recreated the Excelsior board track racer--engine and all--from nothing more than a 100 year old photograph? That guy has mad skills.

cjandme · May 14, 2022

Yes, the one and the same!! On top of having "mad skills" he seems to be a heck of a nice guy. If longtimegone agrees to the terms of allowing the repair to be shown on Paul's YouTube channel we all will be able to see the repair as it gets done. Cj

Longtimegone · May 14, 2022

cjandme said:
Hello longtimegone, you maybe in luck here. I've been in contact with Mr. Paul Brodie and he is open to the idea of fixing your frame. I suppose I should send you a P. M. about it. He's located in Vancouver, so a good deal closer than across the Atlantic. Anyway pm coming your way. Cj

CJ,

I am honored and grateful for your efforts to help out; but as I replied via PM, it's in queue now at a frame fabricator for repair.

Thanks again!
Dave

cjandme · Feb 27, 2023

Hello Hello Longtimegone, you've been gone too long

)) , just wondering about your project and wondering about an update....I live vicariously through these threads since my wife and I have 6 kids with 2 in college and another one graduating High school this year. Cj

Longtimegone · Feb 28, 2023

Thanks for your interest. I'm still here and still working on the P11, but don't post about it often; mainly because it's going e - v - e - r s - o s - l - o - w - l - y.

But the frame is done, cylinder head is done, a lot of polishing is done, and parts continue to be accumulated. Still need to get the gas tank and oil tank refinished. I'll be doing a lot of assembly work now that the weather is warming, and posting more photos.

1967 P11 Basket Case w/Frame issues...

Longtimegone

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