Worn PW3 cam

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The rod bearings do not line up very well with the cam lobes - only the exhaust lobes would get any oil from the rods - and each lobe would only get oil from one side of each rod bearing. Turning a set of cylinders upside down reveals the mis-alignment.

Worn PW3 cam


Half the oil from the head (from the intake rockers) goes to the timing chest to oil the timing gear. The other half (from the exhaust rockers) goes down the pushrod tunnels to the cam. The cam needs all the oil it can get. See the alignment of the oil drain holes in the bronze tappet blocks.
 
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The rod bearings do not line up very well with the cam lobes - only the exhaust lobes would get any oil from the rods - and each lobe would only get oil from one side of each rod bearing. Turning a set of cylinders upside down reveals the mis-alignment.

Half the oil from the head (from the intake rockers) goes to the timing chest to oil the timing gear. The other half (from the exhaust rockers) goes down the pushrod tunnels to the cam. The cam needs all the oil it can get.

Oil in the crankcase is a big torrent of oil vapour once underway. Adequacy in quality and quantity of the oil is what is important and I really doubt quantity is an issue in my humble opinion. How is a Norton twin so much different from say a BSA or Triumph twin with regards to cam lubrication? Do those engines rely on direct impingement of oil? The point is there are two rods, in each instance, that are slewing oil from each of their sides. Furthermore, you have two pistons sweeping 3/4 liter of volume tens to to over a hundred times per second; oil is going everywhere!

I can see some premature cam failures due to inappropriate oil viscosity causing occasional diminished oil flow to something as critical as a cam/tappet interface.
 
Diminished oil viscosity = too high a viscosity? Is this what you are saying?
 
I should have completed my thought.

In my minds eye I was seeing too high a viscosity for the ambient conditions where upon start up (critical time for cams and tappets) and maybe running up to operating temps, there's plenty of pressure but inadequate flow (missting and oil fling)...to the cam lobes.
 
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How is a Norton twin so much different from say a BSA or Triumph twin with regards to cam lubrication?

Or a Chevy or a Ford or pretty much any other pushrod engine...The cam is lubricated by the blizzard of oil in the crankcase.

Take note that all nearly all engine manufacturers had cam failures starting in the late 70s and into the late 80s. Most of the manufacturers cured the problem by going to roller lifters.

So what changed to cause this?

It was the introduction of the catalytic converter and oxygen sensor and the necessary elimination of much of the heavy metal extreme pressure additives from the oil.

That and the fact that most engine manufacturers [along with Norton] started recommending multi-viscosity oils. Unfortunately the spin additives used to make multi-viscosity oils back then were not able to handle the temps in an air cooled motor.

More recently multi-viscosity oils use little, if any spin additive. The ability to hold it's viscosity at higher temps comes from better refining or synthetics so that is not much of a problem anymore.

But that doesn't make up for the missing extreme pressure lubricants that are absent in any oil approved for use in a modern emission controlled car plus the thin base stock used in a water cooled auto engine to help with fuel economy.
 
Copied from LN engineering.

Why use a motorcycle oil?
Motorcycle oils have higher levels of phosphorus/zinc for enhanced wear protection and the same high-temperature detergent technology for superior wear protection and engine cleanliness, even at elevated oil temperatures. Specifically motorcycle oils for aircooled engines are designed for very high localized oil temperatures and high overall oil temperatures, and typically have high flash points coupled with higher HTHS viscosities and lower noack% losses. As a whole, it would appear that all most motorcycle oils we tested have excellent anti-wear additive levels and most are not SM or SN rated oils, but rather earlier SG, SH, or SJ rated. In a pinch, it should be fairly easy to find a motorcycle oil with any of these SG, SH, or SJ ratings at your local auto parts store when it may be more difficult to get Brad Penn or Swepco, without having it shipped to you. Please do remember that motorcycle oils typically have levels of Zn and P that will kill catalytic converters, so if you have one, either remove it first or use another oil, like Brad Penn or Swepco. Also, motorcycle oils are not as detergent as the aforementioned Brad Penn or Swepco, so you must change the oil much more often, even though the perception of being able to go longer because the oil costs more is a false one.
 
For some very good oil information relating to a pushrod air cooled performance motor look to Porsche.

This should be required reading for any Norton owner.

Broken link removed
 
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Great info, Jim. What oil do you use?

I use either Mobil 1 20-50 v-twin oil or Royal Purple XPR20-50 racing oil. Either one works very well.
The Royal Purple stays unaffected by oxidation a little longer and is a little thinner, so that is my preference. It's just so damn expensive.....
 
The Royal Purple stays unaffected by oxidation a little longer and is a little thinner, so that is my preference. It's just so damn expensive.....

When I see how expensive ‘good’ oil is, it makes me wonder just what’s in, and just how good (or bad) is the cheap stuff?

Paying a lot for good oil is something I’m happy to do!
 
i have always used 40 winter 50 in summer for 25 years with slow warm ups . cam perfect on last recent inspection .perhaps thicker oil already stuck on surfaces where it needs to be on start up ? (850 standard cam bike ridden fast after first 10 minutes)
 
Perhaps using the correct viscosity oil for conditions per manufacturers specification.

I don't think stickiness comes under any of the normal cam lubrication regimes though maybe a factor in some chain and sprocket lubes.

There has been some discussion about the trough that the cam sat in on some earlier model Norton twins may have utility in providing immediate start up lube to the cam lobes.

Some research on this subject indicates that along with cam and tappet face hardness, the finish of the cam and tappet faces greatly improves boundary lubrication conditions associated with start up. This is the condition where the extreme pressure additives such as ZDDP save the day (and the cams and tappets).

See below from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stribeck_curve

  1. Boundary lubrication
    • Solid surfaces come into direct contact, load supported mainly by surface asperities, high friction
  2. Mixed lubrication
    • Some asperity contact, load supported by both asperities and the liquid lubricant.
  3. Hydrodynamic lubrication
    • Negligible asperity contact, load supported mainly by hydrodynamic pressure.
I have no idea whether a cam and tappet operate (by design) in the Mixed Lubrication and/or Hydrodynamic Lubrication regimes. Maybe someone more knowledgeable of tribology and cam designs can weigh in here. At a minimum, I suspect it is a rather dynamic situation.
 
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Its funny how this thread is wrapping around my first curiosity statement on page 1, which has come full circle. Jim puts some good points about air cooled engines:

"Specifically motorcycle oils for aircooled engines are designed for very high localized oil temperatures and high overall oil temperatures"

"Take note that all nearly all engine manufacturers had cam failures starting in the late 70s and into the late 80s. Most of the manufacturers cured the problem by going to roller lifters."

Broken link removed
Excellent site you posted.

I haven't seen fullautos damaged cam but I do know he lives on a Continent where the ambient temperatures can reach and sustain levels above +40 C, including some States in North America can reach these levels during the summer. I wonder if this influences oil degradation in regards to cam wear. Riding in the higher temps require more frequent oil changes. I ride most of my roads which never see these temps, but get close now and again. Unfortunately we don't have a gauge to tell us when to change oil or when the oil is breaking down. Cam wear has a lot of variables due to how the engine was build, rider style, engine oil choice, ambient temp range of riding and on and on. Too many things to put a finger on it. I for one am a firm believer of Not using a anti sump valve in a Norton. I want oil in my sump to fling with the flywheel onto that cam the moment I fire it up from a longer than normal slumber.
Thomas
 
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Comstock - If there is enough oil getting on the cam then why did you go to the trouble of drilling your lobes and pressure feed your cam?

If you have a choice to dump some oil directly onto the cam lobes then that is obviously the best thing to do.

Yes oil is flying around in the Norton crankcase but no one knows exactly where it is going or if one or more cam lobes temporarily goes dry in certain conditions or RPMs when the sump is emptied by the oil pump and a one way breather.

Oil from the rods will coat the outside ends of the cam but it may not be reaching all the lobes in certain conditions and the rotation of the cam tends to fling off the oil.

A little more oil to the cam lobes is a no-brainer.
 
Comstock - If there is enough oil getting on the cam then why did you go to the trouble of drilling your lobes and pressure feed your cam?

If you have a choice to dump some oil directly onto the cam lobes then that is obviously the best thing to do.

Yes oil is flying around in the Norton crankcase but no one knows exactly where it is going or if one or more cam lobes temporarily goes dry in certain conditions or RPMs when the sump is emptied by the oil pump and a one way breather.

Oil from the rods will coat the outside ends of the cam but it may not be reaching all the lobes in certain conditions and the rotation of the cam tends to fling off the oil.

A little more oil to the cam lobes is a no-brainer.

Jim, It is a torrent inside the engine crankcase. Oil is going everywhere - that is the no-brainer.

How do you think the main bearings are getting lubricated, hidden behind the crank cheeks? You don't need a flood, only a replenished film.
 
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I haven't seen fullautos damaged cam but I do know he lives on a Continent where the ambient temperatures can reach and sustain levels above +40 C, including some States in North America can reach these levels during the summer. I wonder if this influences oil degradation in regards to cam wear.

Good point. I would think an analysis of fullauto's oil would indicate the degree of degredation.

I for one am a firm believer of Not using a anti sump valve in a Norton. I want oil in my sump to fling with the flywheel onto that cam the moment I fire it up from a longer than normal slumber.
Thomas

Which fits the general literature on cam wear where apparently most of the wear occurs upon start up.
 
Its simple, Fullauto doesn't Rev it high enough to get the pump going properly:)
 
Jim, It is a torrent inside the engine crankcase. Oil is going everywhere - that is the no-brainer.

How do you think the main bearings are getting lubricated, hidden behind the crank cheeks? You don't need a flood, only a replenished film.

Rollers don't need as much oil as flat tappets. And a flood is better when you are sliding two surfaces together such as the rod shell bearings etc - using pressurized oil. The cam may be OK depending on thrown oil (I don't know for certain) but I prefer oil directed onto the centers of the cam lobes.

And Comstock must prefer a better oiling system to the cam as well or he never would have rifle drilled his cam, drilled the cam lobes, plumbed oil to the cam, and put together a higher capacity oil pump to keep up - that's a hell of a lot of work if its for no purpose.

Back to rollers - if you eliminate the steel plate between the main roller and the timing gear - the bearing will be destroyed - I think this is because of TOO MUCH OIL blowing back and forth between the timing chest allowed the rollers to slide instead of turning and eventually making flat spots on the rollers - in that case too much lube is a bad thing but you won't have the same problem with a cam where more oil wedging between the surfaces is a good thing. BTW - Old Porche spider motors with roller rod bearings and bean oil will also wear flats on them if you don't race them and keep them above 2000 or 3000 RPM (street spyders must use shell bearings) - the rollers will not spin at low RPM but just slide inside the bearing.
 
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Rollers don't need as much oil as flat tappets. And a flood is better when you are sliding two surfaces together such as the rod shell bearings etc - using pressurized oil. The cam may be OK depending on thrown oil (I don't know for certain) but I prefer oil directed onto the centers of the cam lobes.

And Comstock must prefer a better oiling system to the cam as well or he never would have rifle drilled his cam, drilled the cam lobes, plumbed oil to the cam, and put together a higher capacity oil pump to keep up - that's a hell of a lot of work if its for no purpose.

Back to rollers - if you eliminate the steel plate between the main roller and the timing gear - the bearing will be destroyed - I think this is because of TOO MUCH OIL blowing back and forth between the timing chest allowed the rollers to slide instead of turning and eventually making flat spots on the rollers - in that case too much lube is a bad thing but you won't have the same problem with a cam where more oil wedging between the surfaces is a good thing. BTW - Old Porche spider motors with roller rod bearings and bean oil will also wear flats on them if you don't race them and keep them above 2000 or 3000 RPM (street spyders must use shell bearings) - the rollers will not spin at low RPM but just slide inside the bearing.

No, a flood is not better. Rod bearings rely on a hydrodynamic wedge which occurs under controlled conditions of load, oil pressure, speed, viscosity, and probably a half dozen other thingies.

This is a good example of problem definition. A solution hunting for a problem. Jim Comstock has not responded as to why he rifled drilled his cam and if it were such a great improvement (or even success) some young entrepreneur would be hawking it as better than the next coming of Jesus Christ if you know what I mean. This falls in the same category as when Herb Becker and I went down the rabbit hole of a 180 degree crank with a middle bearing and feed - trying to solve a problem that was not there. It caused all sorts of other real problems that we should have seen coming - and we paid dearly.

So if you want to promote pumping extra oil over this and that because you think it is a good idea - have at it. I'll take and promote a common sense approach based on a true understanding of what, if any, problem needs to be addressed. I won't recommend it and will certainly discourage it; who needs extra windage in the crankcase?

As for lubricating the rollers - the point I was trying to make is that the right amount of oil gets to these nested away roller bearings. A camshaft hanging out in the torrent of oil mist in the crankcase is certainly getting an adequate quantity of oil - except maybe at start up. Forget about real or perceived targeting of slinging oil from the sides of the rods - that plot is lost. There are numerous examples of cams in engines with no problems whatsoever so that leads me to look elsewhere rather than doing something because one thinks more is better or something like that.

If you research the lubrication recommendation for the NJ306E at the speeds in the Norton application, it is oil misting. I seem to recall reading that too much oil may cause a heat problem with high speed roller bearings; probably another reason not to be squirting gobs of extra oil into the crankcase without a demonstrated reason.
 
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