Won't start

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69750S

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Aug 10, 2009
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The more I futz with my bike, the worse it runs; now it won't run at all. Do I have some version of the Midas touch in reverse?
I decided I wanted to have my carbs perfect to eliminate any potential problems and I had been having some starting issues. I used a dunk tank and fine sanded all the flanges and reassembled everything with new O-rings. I also changed my 230 jets for 220 and my pilot jets for the next smaller size (I think 110).
I took it for a test ride and it died under throttle. I was able to keep it going by pumping the throttle the first time, but when I turned around and headed for home, it died finally and I had to get a lift back to my garage where it has sat since. I tried to start it a few times over the past couple months, but no go.
It seems to be draining gas out of the tank somehow from the right hand petrol tap because that side is empty and I don't remember running it out. I had the tap closed. Since it has been sitting for a couple months now, I'm going to drain the sump in case I had gas leaking thru the carbs into the cylinders. I guess aftre I do that I should pump some oil into the cylinders in case I had gas washing them clean; I know that would destroy compression. BTW is there any good way to drain the oil? Only so much will drain thru the sump and I have to pump the rest out of the oil tank since it seems the only way to drain is to remove the oil line nut on the bottom of the tank which would mean dumping oil all over the gearbox.
I have a Tri Spark on it. Just thought I'd mention that in case that would be an issue altho I can't see why.
On another topic I was looking at Dave's resto on his 69S- great job Dave. Can't wait to see it when it's done.
Thanks in advance for your help everyone.
Bruce
 
I'm not the expert, but I would attack one thing at a time. If you have your AAU it might be worth trying that. Make sure your idle jet is clean with the appropriate wire. Check out Bushman's carb tuning and go through the steps. Check your alternator output at the rectifier or voltage regulator. As far as draining oil, I always liked to take off the block at the back of the timing cover, where you can catch the oil. Then drain sump too and start from scratch. Actually I never drained the oil unless I was changing it, I never knew about wet sumping then.

Can you give me your frame number and when it was manufactured? I'm making a list of the 'S's that are out there.

I think on Thursday I will be ready for a trial startup. Wish me luck, I'll probably need it.

Dave
69S
 
One other thing Bruce. The handbook and early Workshop manual for the 69 lists the needle jet as 107 and the main as 220. When I got mine it had 106 and 240 in it. It seemed to run fine for me, if a bit rich, the plugs were always dark, but I never tried shutting it down off after a hard run to see what they looked like. They never fouled enough to miss, it ran strong until the day I put it away.

Dave
69S
 
69750S said:
BTW is there any good way to drain the oil? Only so much will drain thru the sump and I have to pump the rest out of the oil tank since it seems the only way to drain is to remove the oil line nut on the bottom of the tank which would mean dumping oil all over the gearbox.
IBruce
Click to expand...

Assuming you have a stock oil tank, removing the screw at the bottom right side of the oil tank is the correct way to drain the oil. One way to minimise mess is to place the catch pan alongside the bike, and a car jack or similar sturdy prop under the right footpeg a couple of inches lower, to allow the bike to lean over and rest on it. Undo the plug bolt and let it drain out. Then you can remove the feed side banjo and clean the filter mesh etc. When refitting the drain screw, make sure the copper or aluminium washer is in good condition and don't overtighten the screw.

Mick
 
I use a funnel with an articulated bendable metal "hose" attachment. You can put it right under the drain plug on the tank and run the oil directly into a drip pan. Before you try starting again, I'd drain that old gas out and refill with fresh. Do you have good fuel flow from the tank to the carbs? DogT mentioned checking your electrical. I would second that, and not assume it must be your carbs, as you'll fixate on that and not look at other potential problems. A lot of people have considered TriSpark to be the last word in EI, but I'm not so sure lately, after reading about a number of issues some people seem to be having. Seems they work wonderfully when they are functioning, but they fail, too. Maybe you need to check your timing statically, to see it hasn't gone awry. Are you getting a spark? How do your plugs look? Are they fouled? If that all looks good, then it sounds like you'll want to go through the carb checklist after all.
 
Battery voltage check before doing anything then pop the plugs and check for sparx. Only gonna take a couple of minutes and might save you a lot of time barking up the wrong tree.
 
If the gas ran out of the tank into the crankcase, you should also change your primary oil.

I saw a '72 Norton with some serious damage to the engine and primary due to failure to close the fuel tap - about a gallon of gas seeped into the crankcase, and when the level in the case got high enough, some about 1 1/2 quarts of gas wept past the crank seal into the primary.

Guy took it out after sitting 3 weeks in his garage, and rode it until it stopped.

The way you describe the running, it sounds like an over-rich issue. Air valves stuck down, sticking float, float needle not seating.

If original, petcocks can be cleaned up so they seal again. If petcocks are the new knock-offs with the rubber seals - replace them. The rubber used is not compatible with alcohol-containing gas.
 
Re Tri-Spark.

Are you running stock coils? Did you place them in series and remove the ballast resistor? The stock set up runs thru the ballast resistor and then fires the coils in a parallel configuration. Did you have a chance to check it with a timing light?

As for the carbs. If you have messed around at all with the needle clips they can become loose and pop off during assembly or when throttle is applied. It makes for a messy carb situation until you discover that the needles may be floating free or have jumped to a new groove. Just FYI.

Russ
 
DogT said:
I'm not the expert, but I would attack one thing at a time. If you have your AAU it might be worth trying that. Make sure your idle jet is clean with the appropriate wire. Check out Bushman's carb tuning and go through the steps. Check your alternator output at the rectifier or voltage regulator. As far as draining oil, I always liked to take off the block at the back of the timing cover, where you can catch the oil. Then drain sump too and start from scratch. Actually I never drained the oil unless I was changing it, I never knew about wet sumping then.

Can you give me your frame number and when it was manufactured? I'm making a list of the 'S's that are out there.
Dave my vehicle ID # 131721 on the title. I don't know when it was manufactured.
What is the AAU?
I think on Thursday I will be ready for a trial startup. Wish me luck, I'll probably need it.

Dave
69S
Click to expand...
 
rvich said:
Re Tri-Spark.

Are you running stock coils? Did you place them in series and remove the ballast resistor? The stock set up runs thru the ballast resistor and then fires the coils in a parallel configuration. Did you have a chance to check it with a timing light?

As for the carbs. If you have messed around at all with the needle clips they can become loose and pop off during assembly or when throttle is applied. It makes for a messy carb situation until you discover that the needles may be floating free or have jumped to a new groove. Just FYI.

Russ
Click to expand...
No I replaced them with the twin coil from CNW when I bought the Tri Spark.
I'll check the needle clips. Yes I used a timing light. I think I set it at 28 BTDC per Matt's instructions.
It ran fine before I started futzing with it just a little hard to start sometimes, but now... Well it's probably something simple that I'll slap myself up the side of the head when I figure it out. At least with the Tri Spark I eliminated the kick back the Boyer was giving me.
Thanks
 
Having any luck? I guess somebody should have asked if you had spark? Be sure on the Tri Spark to ground the plugs with good clips as it is harmful to the ignition to kick it over without proper grounded plugs in both HT leads.

Russ

Edit=actually I see Dave asked about spark...just the same make sure you don't damage your EI.
 
Bruce,
Nelson in Charlotte has 131874 and it is APR 1969, mine is 132031 and is also APR 69, so I bet yours is APR 69 also.

Dave
69S
 
Thank you all for your advice.
Boosted by the confidence (albeit misplaced) you all inspired me to take another look at my bike yesterday.
Took the plugs out and sprayed a little WD40 down the holes, then cked for spark- none. Took off ignition cover and no LED light up when I cranked it by hand. Tried cking for power from the battery, had 12.5 across terminals but nothing anywhere else. Removed the inline fuse and ckd it, OK, replaced it and now the LED on the Tri Spark is lighting. What the heck? Replaced ign cover and it started right up. I went to AZone and bought some new fuses just in case (30A; can't find 35A) and replaced the fuse. Ckd and drained the primary just in case but no gas in it. I found the leak; it seems to be coming out of the tank somewhere up above the right side petcock up inside the hump. I meant to order some Caswells from CNW but forgot. I have an extra tank (pearl metalflake with flames- whoa Nellie) so I'll order some Caswells and do them both.
I'm going to take it out for a test ride manana and I'll report back but for now it starts and idles beautifully at 750rpm which it never did before. I really like those Tri Sparks. I was kicking it over in a pair of Birkenstock sandals this afternoon. If I had tried that with my Boyer it would have broken my foot.
BTW Dave I think my pilot is a 107; I ckd the ones I took out and they were 106. Maybe my logic was to go down one size on the main and up one on the pilot. I cant remember. I know I have 220 mains in it now. I think I also moved the needle clip to the top slot, but I'll check when I pull the tank. Right now I'm just excited to take it for a drive manana.
So April 69. Our bikes were produced very close to each other; certainly within a week of each other.
Well I didn't do anything, but the bike is running. Maybe Nortons have a cosmic consciousness that tell them to
Fear the Forum!
Anyway I'm happy.
Thanks again.
Bruce
 
Yes, don't put a USA 33 amp fuse in it. 20 should be plenty good. The english 35 amp fuses would blow at about 20, I forget what that reasoning is, but there was a thread on it recently and L.A.B. explained it.

Dave
69S
 
DogT said:
Yes, don't put a USA 33 amp fuse in it. 20 should be plenty good. The english 35 amp fuses would blow at about 20, I forget what that reasoning is, but there was a thread on it recently and L.A.B. explained it.

Dave
69S
Click to expand...
I remember that thread, but couldnt remember the amperage. I'll change it out for a 20A manana. Thanks
 
Here's a handy conversion chart:

Bussman Conversion Chart

English Type............... American Standard Replacement
50 amp...........................AGC 30
35 amp...........................AGC 25
30 amp...........................AGC 20
25 amp...........................AGC 15
20 amp...........................AGC 10
10 amp...........................AGC 7 1/2
5 amp...........................AGC 3

The British Standard rated fuses by the current that was guaranteed to make them blow instantly while the American (and now international) standard rates fuses by the current that they will carry forever. Fuses work on heat, so a small overload may take a long time to build up enough heat to melt the fusible element and blow the fuse. How warm the fuse was to begin with plays a large role too. So the carry rating winds up being quite a bit lower than the blow rating.
 
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