Why no Electric starter til 1975?

mike996 said:

"I took the hacksaw to my Mk3 electric tart almost as soon as I got it. It went in the bin along with the indicators and mirrors from every other bike I'd owned. I'm with everiman on this."

Why purchase a MKIII in that situation? Why not get a '71 750, for example, that was much lighter and faster, and you wouldn't have had to remove all that stuff because it wasn't there in the first place?

Click to expand...

The MKIII had many marked improvements over any other model. Too bad about the starter with it's over size battery and the left shift though. Change those 2 things and you have a great motorcycle.

mike996 said:

Frankly, I guess I was a weenie because at age 26 I had grown quite tired of kickstarting my '71 Commando while everyone else was already down the road - let's don't even talk about stalling it in heavy traffic at a stop light - so after 7 years of ownership I sold it to buy a Honda 750F.

Kinda wish I still had that 750F...

Click to expand...

Man, you've been hangin with the wrong crowd. When I took a 750 honda for a test ride I couldn't get past the squat feeling I got from the wide tank and short wheelbase. I told them it felt like riding on the back of a giant lady bug when I got back. In comparison my Norton felt like a thoroughbred race horse, long and lean with a huge gait.

mike996 said:

"I took the hacksaw to my Mk3 electric tart almost as soon as I got it. It went in the bin along with the indicators and mirrors from every other bike I'd owned. I'm with everiman on this."

Why purchase a MKIII in that situation? Why not get a '71 750, for example, that was much lighter and faster, and you wouldn't have had to remove all that stuff because it wasn't there in the first place?

Frankly, I guess I was a weenie because at age 26 I had grown quite tired of kickstarting my '71 Commando while everyone else was already down the road - let's don't even talk about stalling it in heavy traffic at a stop light - so after 7 years of ownership I sold it to buy a Honda 750F.

Kinda wish I still had that 750F...

Click to expand...

Ahh yes, How I remember the tingling vibration of the Hondas, from the little ones right up to the 750 four.
In those days we didnt care, and much of the riding was local drag racing and farting about. Now for me its all touring, the vibration level of those machines would be unthinkable. Than God for isolastics!

The main weight difference between a Mk 3 and earlier Commandos is in the starter mechanism and battery. Remove that and weight is back on par. The 850 has 8 ft lbs more torque than a standard Commando 750, and 6 ft lbs more than a full spec Combat, tho not many Combats are left that way. Do you really think the 750 is "much faster" than an 850?
A good friend bought a 71 Roadster new and kept it until a few years ago.In 75, he and his girlfriend went to
England to live for one year. They purchased a new Mk 3 850 and toured extensively on it, all over Europe.
The only mod he made to the bike was to change the very quiet stock exhaust for free flowing peashooters

The sold the bike before moving back home to Canada. I asked him how the two bikes compared.
He told me that the 75 850 was the more powerful bike and was also a much more refined machine. He regretted selling it and purchased a very nice replacement not long before his death. He only got to ride this last 850 on one short ride, he was killed a week later while riding his Vincent in California.

The main weight difference between a Mk 3 and earlier Commandos is in the starter mechanism and battery. Remove that and weight is back on par. The 850 has 8 ft lbs more torque than a standard Commando 750, and 6 ft lbs more than a full spec Combat, tho not many Combats are left that way. Do you really think the 750 is "much faster" than an 850?
A good friend bought a 71 Roadster new and kept it until a few years ago.In 75, he and his girlfriend went to
England to live for one year. They purchased a new Mk 3 850 and toured extensively on it, all over Europe.
The only mod he made to the bike was to change the very quiet stock exhaust for free flowing peashooters

The sold the bike before moving back home to Canada. I asked him how the two bikes compared.
He told me that the 75 850 was the more powerful bike and was also a much more refined machine. He regretted selling it and purchased a very nice replacement not long before his death. He only got to ride this last 850 on one short ride, he was killed a week later while riding his Vincent in California.[/quote]

Man, that is really sad, makes me kinda misty, remembering lost loved ones. We gotta live for today, and be kind to one another....sigh

He was out on a quiet straight stretch of road, only one car in front of him, a Jeep CJ with three young guys inside. They slowed down and pulled over to the right hand shoulder, he went into the left lane to go around them and they popped a U turn right over him, no signal. Broke his leg badly, but it was a week later that a blood clot that broke loose from the injury and went into his brain. That finished him off. He was 59 and had just taken early retirement, this was his first motorcycle trip in retirement.

He looked about 40, was terrific shape at the time of the accident.

Glen

commando6868 said:

" a mystic to owning a large capacity British motorcycle forty years ago" Huh?? What were you chaps smoking over there in Flanders? ( and do you have any more?)

MF

Click to expand...

Good grief ! Did I really type 'mystic' instead of 'mystique' ? I've been living abroad too long ! :roll:

In answer to Mike's question about why I bought a Mk3 although it wasn't what I was looking for....at the time, the fat ugly Mk3s had little street cred and nobody wanted them. I looked for ages and found that my choice came down to a reasonable Mk3 or a doggy 2A. There hardly seemed to be any good 750s in the UK by the late 1970s, early 1980s. They'd all been thrashed hard and parked outside for a decade of salty winters. The average Commando is much tidier now than when they were merely secondhand bikes.

"Man, you've been hangin with the wrong crowd. When I took a 750 honda for a test ride I couldn't get past the squat feeling I got from the wide tank and short wheelbase."

I agree if you are talking about the original type CB750 (through 1978, I think). But the F was the first DOHC 750 Honda and had a much slimmer tank. It would easily outrun and outhandle my Commando whereas the earlier CB750 could do neither. The F felt much lighter than the original CB - though I don't really know if it was lighter or just had a much lower CG or better geometry than the CB750 - and was very "toss-able." Of all the bikes I have owned, it's the only one I have ever said I miss after having sold it. No - didn't miss my '71 Commando until 2006...Nostalgia, you know! I didn't miss any of my three Ducati's or any of the other Japanese bikes. OK...maybe I would kinda like trying to ride my Kawa Mach III again on my "death wish" days but those are seldom now.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my Commando and I have no intention of replacing it. But the reality is that it's more about owning a "cool bike" that everyone seems drawn to than it is about a practical motorcycle. When I'm out with our "group," whenever we stop, the Commando draws the crowd, regardless of what other bikes are there. I have to admit that that part is great fun! Even Hardly Ableson riders come to look at it.

When I was a kid, the CB 750 seemed 'huge" to me. One ride and I was hooked!
So much so that I've owned probably 20 of them over the years.
the SOHC inline 4 cylinder is still one of my favorite engine designs.

Back in the days of Sportsters, Triumphs, etc. with six inch over fork tubes and king/queen seats, I saw my first MK3 and
was again instantly drawn to it.
But..... it was a new fancy rich guys bike that I was sure that I'd never be able to afford.

Fast forward many years and many motorcycles later......
One day I saw a steering head, triple tree and gauges sticking out of a pile of junk on a trailer that pulled into the lumber yard that I was working at.
I knew what it was, talked to the guy and a few hours later, I had a MK3 Interstate (actually a pile of MK3 parts) in my driveway.
20 years later, I've still got it.

Interestingly enough, I traded a CB750 for it.

Yes Mike, it was a CB750 I'd tested. Sorry to dis your F model, I was ill informed.

Hidalgo said:

"You can say anything you want about me, but don't talk about my horse that way" ...WHAM!

Click to expand...

I rode a CB750 Honda back when they first arrived in Australia, it felt disgusting - heavy handling. I was used to riding 650cc Triumphs and a 1963 Bonneville would make it look stupid, except for the difference in oil leaks and reliability and the vibrations from the motor which appear at the handle bars.

I guess that one mans "disgusting - heavy handling" is another mans "solid and planted to the road".
Different folks - Different strokes.

well, it is happening to me right now..

the pain in my legs caused by my aging spine compressing and pushing on the nerves in my legs....

I barely was able to kick start my 850 this morning and my wife said maybe it IS time you got one of those electric starters installed in your Norton

my first reaction was NO WAY, I am man enough to start my Norton!

my wife said, yeah but for not much longer and given the choice of riding it or not....

so, looks like about $2600 or so, push a button and my Commando starts right up?

I am getting closer and closer to this....

Ugh, bilateral limb pain is Central Nervous System killer diller. Start looking up and saving up for some repeated surgery, laser micro the hot stuff now, but unless you learn to regrow your own spinal postures too often a few years later next bearing blows out or rusts up seized. If can still get up after THE Sag Factor and think about riding, ya ain't yet got full idea of how bad it can get. When will power alone can't make a limb move or just cramps up worse distorted with lightening bolts heart stopping pains for days on end then remember my advice.

I am born addict so no question I'm too weak to do the logical thing with family and friends in mind, but at least enough BAD experiences to face facts, best survival and heath decision is to swear off motorcycles,whether kicked off like a healthy confident dude or thumbed over like a timid meek mommy.

Skip > 7:00 as earlier part may disturb thoughts o[video][/video]ff addictive wastefulness point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyWvbHeMOWc

I used to jog daily ubtil about 12 years ago when my knees got too sore from it. I too was seriously looking for a MKIII. I spent a few years before I bought a bicycle and began riding it. At 1st I was short of breath and would envision my self at the top of hills that challenged me, laying on my back beside my new bike having heart attacks but I always managed to make it to the top with out that happening. I'd mentally promise myself if I made it to the top I'd reward myself with a break at the top but when I got there there was no way I was going to stop and loose my momentum (as little as there was after those climbs). Within 3 months I rarely used the 2 lowest ranges of the 21 speed bike, using only the 7 high gears and I could stand up and peddle up those hills thay once challenged me. I've ridden the bicycle almost daily for about 8 years now and my knees are like a teenagers again. I attribute this to my bicycle 100%.

All you complainers, get off your butts and try riding a bicycle, slowly and go a little further each time till you don't get out of breath so easy and you start building muscles around the knees again. It's a real bitch at first but after a year you will never give it up and you'll live longer. I'm a believer.

Another thing, you'll be amazed at how many old farts you see out on the bike trails.

Start looking up and saving up for some repeated surgery,

Click to expand...

thanks for the advice Hobot but I am way past that

I am now only eight weeks past my second spine surgery, this time to remove a piece of vertebra

I get the maximum of six nerve blocking spine injections a year, and still may end up in a wheel chair.....

yes, an Alton electric start conversion is looking better and better to me

3 level cervical fusion here.
Arthritis in my hips
2 levels in the lumbar need fixing (somehow)
Grade 4 torn MCL in right knee (arthroscopic repair)

..............still kickstarting norton.

The basic reasons were 1.) crappy undersized batteries and 2.) very large and inefficient starter motors back in the late 1960s. Norton's complete obeisance to the Prince of Darkness (aka Lucas) added to the problem.

We forget nowadays what the US space program did for a lot of technologies. Prime among them was the development of rare-earth magnets for DC electric motors. I have an electric start Honda lawnmower, about 16 years old. The start batteries are 5 rechargeable D-cells in a small box mounted under the handlebars. The engine has a small generator that keeps the batteries charged. It's very rare that I need to use the recoil starter.

When I was at N-V, (early 1967 to Easter 1968) we investigated an electric starter, but the thing that Lucas suggested was about 6" diameter and 12" long. I think it was the same one they did for the Mini and Morris Minor. There was no way we could find room for it, and it would have been difficult to incorporate the kind of clutch they used on the cars.

My impression is that, until the Japanese bike manufacturers came up with their concept of electric start, N-V were stuck with whatever Lucase was flogging. Even then, the early version wasn't called electric starting, but "electrically assisted kick start".

If I remember correctly, Yamamaha got around that on their earlier XS650's by incorporating a compression release on the left exhaust valve in conjunction with the electric start. It had a compression release lever on the left bar that would both deflate the left cylinder and power up the starter motor. Sure, you were only running on one cylinder at the moment, but, once you dropped the compression release/starter, the left side would chime in. I pulled off the starter motor and went to a much smaller battery, and dropped another 20 pounds off the bike. 'Shoulda never sold that one, too...

frankdamp said:

The basic reasons were 1.) crappy undersized batteries and 2.) very large and inefficient starter motors back in the late 1960s. Norton's complete obeisance to the Prince of Darkness (aka Lucas) added to the problem.

We forget nowadays what the US space program did for a lot of technologies. Prime among them was the development of rare-earth magnets for DC electric motors. I have an electric start Honda lawnmower, about 16 years old. The start batteries are 5 rechargeable D-cells in a small box mounted under the handlebars. The engine has a small generator that keeps the batteries charged. It's very rare that I need to use the recoil starter.

When I was at N-V, (early 1967 to Easter 1968) we investigated an electric starter, but the thing that Lucas suggested was about 6" diameter and 12" long. I think it was the same one they did for the Mini and Morris Minor. There was no way we could find room for it, and it would have been difficult to incorporate the kind of clutch they used on the cars.

My impression is that, until the Japanese bike manufacturers came up with their concept of electric start, N-V were stuck with whatever Lucase was flogging. Even then, the early version wasn't called electric starting, but "electrically assisted kick start".

Click to expand...

nav should have moved to Bosch, who had reliable high out put alternators and starter motors that were (usually) man enough to start BMWS, Moto Guzzis and Laverdas, all big twins and the Laverda left out the kick start lever. This was available from 1970 onwards and the starter motors were conventional ones, though the later Permenant magnet staters are much better.

The Bosch starter motors of the period were large including the Ducati versions which ended up with a multiple reduction.
Small starter motor sprocket to one around 2 in OD via a chain which was on the same shaft with a small again drive gear to the large diameter gear wheel (6 in maybe) that had the shoulder to engage the sprag clutch.
The problem on the Brit bikes due to the alternator layout was getting a big enough gear wheel at the crank which comes back to a usable and reliable reduction ratio.
I think the Ducati Darmah starter was rated over 1 HP. (1.2 maybe)
Ducati and the like were able to change the engine side cover to accept the starter set up.
Most Japanese bikes were the same basic layout and so had decent reduction drives.
Remember the canted (BSA) Triumph T160 block to fit a starter motor.

With some adaptions to the gearbox how about starter ring gear on clutch, might be an gearing issue?