Electric Starter for Matchless Single

Deets55 · Jun 19, 2019

swooshdave said:
Pretty sure John is a member of the forum.

He goes by G81 Can Cycle. Just listed his 961 in the For Sale section.

mdt-son · Jun 19, 2019

N0rt0nelectr@ said:
Got some info from Matt at CNW. Here is what he said.

The guys name is John Snead and his machine shop (STS) is down in Florida. We had been talking about creating a starter kit for the Atlas but it didn't go far as so much would have to be re-designed, tested and then machine a relatively good amount of them to make sense out of a production run. In other words, just making a few is hard as no one would want to pay the price for a short run considering the development costs. We are nearing 200 Commando kits sold and we have not broke even yet
So to do something like that for the Matchless may not be in the cards unfortunately. Not for us anyway

John,
I appreciate discussing the e-starter venture with Matt @ CNW. It would be nonsense to start a development project when an engineered solution is available which can be tweaked with minor investments. I am talking of the MacCoon e-starter. Even with this favorable starting point, I reckon start-up costs will exceed $50,000 and 100 kits need to be sold to break even. It's a tough venture. Broadening the offering to include pre-Commando models may help reach the target but this will increase development costs further still.

-Knut

N0rt0nelectr@ · Jun 20, 2019

mdt-son said:
John,
I appreciate discussing the e-starter venture with Matt @ CNW. It would be nonsense to start a development project when an engineered solution is available which can be tweaked with minor investments. I am talking of the MacCoon e-starter. Even with this favorable starting point, I reckon start-up costs will exceed $50,000 and 100 kits need to be sold to break even. It's a tough venture. Broadening the offering to include pre-Commando models may help reach the target but this will increase development costs further still.

-Knut

Well we know that there aren't that many Matchless singles and twins left. So yeah the cost and the potential number of units sold would make the project unfeasible. Matt at CNW get $2,500 per unit and has sold around 200 and hasn't broken even isn't a good sign.

N0rt0nelectr@ · Jun 20, 2019

swooshdave said:
Pretty sure John is a member of the forum.

Yes, I am. Picked up a part for Rick Taylor that is to big to mail and I will take it to him in Davenport over Labor Day.
John in Texas

mdt-son · Jun 20, 2019

N0rt0nelectr@ said:
Well we know that there aren't that many Matchless singles and twins left. So yeah the cost and the potential number of units sold would make the project unfeasible. Matt at CNW get $2,500 per unit and has sold around 200 and hasn't broken even isn't a good sign.

That statement is a bit premature I think.

-Knut

Dave Moyle · Jul 13, 2019

Re previous posts I know Steve Mcfarlen (not well) who does the BSA conversion his shop is about 10 miles from me I will call on him and see what his attitude is to AMC starter conversion I know I would like one for my 18s

mdt-son · Jul 14, 2019

Dave Moyle said:
Re previous posts I know Steve Mcfarlen (not well) who does the BSA conversion his shop is about 10 miles from me I will call on him and see what his attitude is to AMC starter conversion I know I would like one for my 18s

Good luck. McFarlan is a BSA entgusiast and I'd be surprised to see him turning his attention to AMC bikes. The BSA kit fits dynamo equipped BSA A7/A10 models only. Why doesn't he offer a kit for A50/A65 alternator-equipped twins? Answer: Too complicated without offering a new left side crancase (due to being a unit engine) which will require a costly machining job to make the timing side crankcase fit. A revised outer primary case will be needed as well. Going this route requires a QPD style starter layout.

Richard MacCoon devised an effective yet simple solution along these lines. For a non-unit engine, the essential modification encompasses the primary chaincase only - OEM crankcases are retained. Dynamo equipped AMC single and twin models using pressed steel chaincases (pre 1958) may be converted to the later alternator design. For pre-1957 bikes, an AMC gearbox and AMC clutch internals should be fitted which is a fairly simple exercise.

-Knut

Dave Moyle · Jul 15, 2019

mdt-son said:
Good luck. McFarlan is a BSA entgusiast and I'd be surprised to see him turning his attention to AMC bikes. The BSA kit fits dynamo equipped BSA A7/A10 models only. Why doesn't he offer a kit for A50/A65 alternator-equipped twins? Answer: Too complicated without offering a new left side crancase (due to being a unit engine) which will require a costly machining job to make the timing side crankcase fit. A revised outer primary case will be needed as well. Going this route requires a QPD style starter layout.

Richard MacCoon devised an effective yet simple solution along these lines. For a non-unit engine, the essential modification encompasses the primary chaincase only - OEM crankcases are retained. Dynamo equipped AMC single and twin models using pressed steel chaincases (pre 1958) may be converted to the later alternator design. For pre-1957 bikes, an AMC gearbox and AMC clutch internals should be fitted which is a fairly simple exercise.

-Knut

Dave Moyle · Jul 15, 2019

Sorry what I meant was his attitude to his patents I thought this was a potential sticking point maybe I got the wrong end of the stick
My bike is a 1957 18s (amc, box tin chaincase)

mdt-son · Jul 16, 2019

Dave Moyle said:
Sorry what I meant was his attitude to his patents I thought this was a potential sticking point maybe I got the wrong end of the stick

That patent can be disputed anytime. The McFarlan development contains no invention worthy of a patent. Anyway, better not to discuss with him, as he could be mislead to think he is king of the crop. Sleeping dogs are best left asleep.

-Knut

mdt-son · Jul 16, 2019

Dave Moyle said:
My bike is a 1957 18s (amc, box tin chaincase)

The MacCoon starter kit can be taylored to fit your bike. You should consider this upgrade.

-Knut

N0rt0nelectr@ · Oct 27, 2019

Knut, can you contact me off line. Might have a lead on a un-used starter kit.
John in Texas

N0rt0nelectr@ · Nov 15, 2019

mdt-son said:
John,
I appreciate discussing the e-starter venture with Matt @ CNW. It would be nonsense to start a development project when an engineered solution is available which can be tweaked with minor investments. I am talking of the MacCoon e-starter. Even with this favorable starting point, I reckon start-up costs will exceed $50,000 and 100 kits need to be sold to break even. It's a tough venture. Broadening the offering to include pre-Commando models may help reach the target but this will increase development costs further still.

-Knut

Tell me more about the MacCoon e-start.
John in Texas

mdt-son · Nov 16, 2019

N0rt0nelectr@ said:
Tell me more about the MacCoon e-start.
John in Texas

Hi John, have you seen the video? Look at the start of this thread and you will find the link. The kit will fit all singles up to 1966 including the G80CS which was used as a testbed.
Any particular questions, please ask. I have studied the kit and the manufacturing carefully and should be able to answer most questions except availability

No, I will not discuss remanufacture in a public forum. There are too many details and secrets involved. Property rights still reside with the MacCoon family.

-Knut

jpl · Sep 10, 2020

This has been a very interesting thread, but why did it end so abruptly 10 months ago.
I have a 1948 G80, a 1966 Dunstall equipped Atlas, and a 1972 Commando. None presently runnable so I wouldn't be retrofitting electric start to any, but I have found this whole discussion fascinating anyway. It would be understandable if the discussion was taken off line for legal or economic reasons, but perhaps a clue as to status would be okay?

mdt-son · Sep 11, 2020

jpl said:
This has been a very interesting thread, but why did it end so abruptly 10 months ago.
I have a 1948 G80, a 1966 Dunstall equipped Atlas, and a 1972 Commando. None presently runnable so I wouldn't be retrofitting electric start to any, but I have found this whole discussion fascinating anyway. It would be understandable if the discussion was taken off line for legal or economic reasons, but perhaps a clue as to status would be okay?

Long negotiaitions with the MacCoon family came to nothing, as they decided to keep the asset. I don't know what they are planning to do. My intention is to launch a competing product.

-Knut

kommando · Sep 11, 2020

Well feel free to use any elements you want from my own Norton Commando Starter scheme. I have tried to use as many standard parts as possible and I am sure some elements are open to being called dubious but I had 2 Commandos, a lathe and a mill so could do 2 sets for a lot less than the £4000 two of the commercial kits cost.

Starter motor is fitted to engine plates, its a chain drive to a sprocket inboard of the primary case so the motor moves for tensioning.

View from rear showing second plate, starter is from a Kawasaki KLF300 4WD

Just enough clearance in from the old magneto position.

The chain drives a shaft that runs through a sealed bearing into the primary case, what is not shown is a second sealed bearing on the far side of the engine plate fixes the other end of the shaft to the engine plate. The shaft inside the primary has a starter spline so a second sprocket can be mounted which then drives a sprag on the end of the crank inboard of the alternator. The sprag is a modified Honda GL1100 which is chain driven as standard. To make space the engine triplex sprocket was machined down to take a duplex Merc chain.

Duplex sprocket with 2 nibs to be driven by sprag.

Sprag unit running on needle roller, there is an adaptor to take the crank diameter to match the inner id of a hardened inner roller sleeve shown in lower pic. This is keyed to the crank and at 180 degrees it has an extension to key into the alternator rotor. This then means the crank end nut needs to be torqued correctly and with Loctite as the extension is a potential weak point.

Just a different angle

Sprockets to fit the starter splines are made using a broach, there is a Volvo alternator tool that has the same splines and is hardened which when driven cold into the right sized hole forms the correct spline inside the sprocket.

The second chain inside the primary is at fixed centres, so these is an outrigger plate with an automotive cam chain tensioner that tensions this chain. Sorry no pics of that mounted.

kommando · Sep 11, 2020

Outrigger plate, the outer cover screws onto it, this shows the inside of the plate where the tensioner is.

and this shows the other side, the slots are to feed oil to the tensioner. You can see the chrome nut to mount the outer cover.

jpl · Sep 12, 2020

mdt-son said:
Long negotiaitions with the MacCoon family came to nothing, as they decided to keep the asset. I don't know what they are planning to do. My intention is to launch a competing product.

-Knut

Thanks for the update Knut. Hope it's a happy adventure for you.