Why no Electric starter til 1975?

At Norton Villiers in 1970 they had the first 750/4 Honda in the UK, especially imported from the US. Side by side comparisons were run, where the Commando was better than the Honda in every respect except braking (this was a 750 C'do, with 8" TLS front brake). Better top speed, better acceleration, better (much better) handling and steering, better fuel economy. It was identified that the Honda was far more reliable and had a electric start however. As a result work was started on an electric starter and a disc brake probably in early/mid 1970. Initially the starter was tried where the magneto used to beon Dominators/Atlas' etc, behind the cylinders. Space was the problem, the max. sized drive chain that would fit, simply wasn't up to the task. The motor would start reliably when hot, as long as it didn't backfire. If it backfired the sprag clutch wouldn't disengage quickly enough and the chain would break. The motor would usually start after a night in the cold room (down to something like 20 degrees F if my memory is ok). However if it didn't start straight away the battery would flatten very quickly. There used to be regular phone calls from the test rider to say "come and pick me up, the e/s chain has broken again".
The V twin Moto Guzzi engine was originally designed for a small (3 wheeled??) tractor/agricultural vehicle. So reliability, easy maintenance etc would have been high on the list of requirements.
cheers
wakeup

SHAGADELLIC

Thats why the commando never needed an electric starter.... its a man's machine. a 5'-2" 105lb 20 year old japanese male would have a hell of a time starting this little monster. a matter of macho pride, as with a number or other characteristics of our bikes.

Just last night I watched "Inside Deep Throat", an interesting documentary about the making and success (the most profitable film, EVER) of the 1972 classic. I maintain the assertion that kickstarting was part of the real man's world. Sexuality was just becoming a prime time, wide open issue back then, and everything was looked at in that way. We started our bikes, and the chicks got on the back. it was foreplay.

DonOR said:

Thats why the commando never needed an electric starter.... its a man's machine. a 5'-2" 105lb 20 year old japanese male would have a hell of a time starting this little monster. a matter of macho pride, as with a number or other characteristics of our bikes.

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When I had my 650SS, which had 9:1 pistons etc etc, my wife who at the time was 5'2" and weighed 100lbs could not only start it but ride it pretty well. You don't have to be big strong and macho to start a Commando. You just have to have the right technique.
cheers
wakeup

DonOR said:

SHAGADELLIC

Thats why the commando never needed an electric starter.... its a man's machine. a 5'-2" 105lb 20 year old japanese male would have a hell of a time starting this little monster. a matter of macho pride, as with a number or other characteristics of our bikes.

We started our bikes, and the chicks got on the back. it was foreplay.

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You made me laugh! Thank you

Nater_Potater said:

At the ripe old age of 53, I can only assume my kickstart time is short, but, in the meantime, I'll take a certain smug satisfaction in being able to chew my own food and start my own motorcyle.
Nathan

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Don't worry unduly. I'm 63 and can start my Commando even when a significant amount if its oil is in the sump! As others say, it's technique more than weight/strength that's crucial.

I think the reason NVT dragged their heels at fitting an electric foot was as much to do with apathy as anything. The management seemed to have a "that will do" attitude rather than a desire to do things the right way. The isolastics were a classic example. The shims were supposed to be a temporary solution as that was the first attempt to test the idea. The designers wanted to improve the system but management said it works so don't spend any more time/money on it. I also remember somebody at the factory telling me about the way the bikes were assembled, it sounded sloppy at best, e.g. there was no way laid down for routing of cables so it was down to the person fitting them to decide. If they weren't engineers or had no idea of the best way to route a cable it would just be fitted any old way.

Ian

Agreed, starting is more technique than strength that you soon learn after getting kicked back a couple of times. I hardly ever use the starter, but with me , if it's fitted then it has to work. It's a real benefit when 2 up with luggage and the bike stalls, aswell as the messing about at ports where you can be moved 100 yards at a time .
Lastly, it's a bit of fun to use it when surrounded by others who don't expect it to actually work :shock:
sam

Something is wrong with my Mk3 ,the compression is fearful...i am 13 stone and have a hard time kicking the motor over..so its the button..untill the electrics weaken.
Went over to see my grandson...his dad said " show him how you used to kick start these old bike's grandad" Grandad!!!! so i had to .didnt i? Well the beast just had other ideas...sweat! But i did spring her into life, well the grandon was well impressed with gran par, not sure the old knee was :lol:
I have had many old bikes, and still own a 500 venom clubman , but the commando as more comp, [410cc] i can stand on the kicker for 3-4 seconds , can the kick ratio be poorly designed? its a genuine 6000 miles from new ,so just run in?

One of the 1st times I really saw a motorcycle, I mean up close where you could feel it, smell it and what ever else it did to you if you were close enough I was about 10 and a bunch of bikers were waiting on their buddy to get his motor running. This was the 60's and I think it was an Indian, I remember the fenders and the flat head's fins. These bikers were the real deal, they looked like a bunch of savages. Me and a couple friends saw the motorcycles and ran over to get a better look. We stood there with mouths open and eyes gapeing as this guy kicked away on this monstrosity until it fired up and they all roared off. There was something about kicking a machine over to bring it to life that I saw there that made that experience different from any other machine my dad owned or you saw anywhere. It gave a motorcycle a personality no other motor vehicle came close to. When I bought my 1st bike years later you can bet it was a kick start and when the Japanese bikes came out with their electric starts it sickened me. Motorcycles were losing something of their character. Now adays you can be parked with 1/2 dozen harleys and be the only one that kicks ass with kick start klass :wink: and the on lookers seem to take notice too, something people just don't see much of anymore. My knees are going to have to get a lot worse before I breakdown and use an electric start... at least in public.

Old Bloke said:

worntorn said:

Unless my memory is wrong, the Commando kicked all asses in Cycle World 1970 test, which included a Honda 750 four. Kawi 900 came later (again, my memory, a bit iffy at times) but before that 750 h2 smoker that laid waste to pretty much everything. Not in 1970 tho, the Commando was king of the 1/4 mile and the Honda 750 four was an also ran. I believe the braking on the Commando also got higher marks than the Honda, hard as that may be to believe now.

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Worse than the Norton disc, eek.
Nah, in 1976 my dad had a secondhand 750four, possibly a 72, I was on the back of it when he had to emergency brake, front wheel locked, and I nearly left the bike over him.
On my first Commando, I ran a stock master cylinder and disc and it was plain dangerous. First time we ever went to IOM to watch the TT I swapped bikes with my mate who had a Suzuki 650 Katana. I braked to stop at a t Junction on a downhill bit and he sailed past me, just stopped in time. After we swapped back he patted me on the back and said I was a brave man. Story still gets told every year.
With a sleeved or aftermarket master cylinder its perfectly good, I love mines now.

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re; “Nah, in 1976 my dad had a secondhand 750four, possibly a 72, I was on the back of it when he had to emergency brake, front wheel locked, and I nearly left the bike over him.”

There seems to be a memory lasp on the very disappointing performance of the Honda’s front disc braking lag in the wet weather :?: …….. they were just …..crap :!: (at the time)

Bernhard said:

Old Bloke said:

worntorn said:

Unless my memory is wrong, the Commando kicked all asses in Cycle World 1970 test, which included a Honda 750 four. Kawi 900 came later (again, my memory, a bit iffy at times) but before that 750 h2 smoker that laid waste to pretty much everything. Not in 1970 tho, the Commando was king of the 1/4 mile and the Honda 750 four was an also ran. I believe the braking on the Commando also got higher marks than the Honda, hard as that may be to believe now.

Click to expand...

Worse than the Norton disc, eek.
Nah, in 1976 my dad had a secondhand 750four, possibly a 72, I was on the back of it when he had to emergency brake, front wheel locked, and I nearly left the bike over him.
On my first Commando, I ran a stock master cylinder and disc and it was plain dangerous. First time we ever went to IOM to watch the TT I swapped bikes with my mate who had a Suzuki 650 Katana. I braked to stop at a t Junction on a downhill bit and he sailed past me, just stopped in time. After we swapped back he patted me on the back and said I was a brave man. Story still gets told every year.
With a sleeved or aftermarket master cylinder its perfectly good, I love mines now.

Click to expand...

re; “Nah, in 1976 my dad had a secondhand 750four, possibly a 72, I was on the back of it when he had to emergency brake, front wheel locked, and I nearly left the bike over him.”

There seems to be a memory lasp on the very disappointing performance of the Honda’s front disc braking lag in the wet weather :?: …….. they were just …..crap :!: (at the time)

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Fair enough, must have imagined it.

The electric starter took a long time to catch on in motorcycles. In 1914 the Hendee Manufacturing Company which, in 1928, was renamed the Indian Motocycle Manufacturing company of Springfield Massachusetts, offered an electric starter as an option. Batteries were not very good back then and it never caught on. Norton came (too) late to the game. The Japanese came along and offered cycles without kick starter, just a button, but Indian was the first.

MF

In this case, I feel H-D had the best electric start design, the automotive type Bendix drive that gave positive engagement. (although heavy, not very compact) The large displacement twin offers unique challenge for the starter system versus a big multi cylinder bike. I own a Japanese 750 twin from the same time period, the starter sprag every bit as fragile as the MKIII setup.

Well.. the Japs weren't TOTALLY confident in e-start at the beginning. My 69 Honda 350 had a kick starter along with E, as did my 1975 750 Honda. However, my 79 Honda 750F had ONLY e-start. FWIW, of all the bikes I have owned, I still think of that 750F as the best one overall...

It was amusing as I think back on those days - I had a '71 750 Commando during that same period (sold it in 78) and every time I rode it wondered, "what the heck am I doing on this thing?" But for some reason, I enjoyed it the most...

The /5 BMW airheads had a fairly reliable starter from about 1970. Using the same clunky Bosch starter motor operating on the flywheel that Moto Guzzi used.

Starting on cold days could be a hit or miss affair until they lengthened the wheel base of the bike, which steadied high speed handling and gave enough space for a 28AH battery.

' Consider our forum as a fix to the educational system that you mention.'

Have you seen this ?

http://vimeo.com/20789680

Where are our replacements coming from when we are gone ? - not enough kids see our forum. Looking back on my life, I cannot believe how lucky we were, even though we had the Vietnam War. We lived in an environment where we were not wrapped in cotton wool, we could even build our own bikes and race them in open events. I believe we should continue to fight for our basic freedoms and not simply lie down and accept the plastic throw-away society. There are people and corporations on this planet who would like to eliminate constructive petrol heads .

"Where are our replacements coming from when we are gone ? - not enough kids see our forum. Looking back on my life, I cannot believe how lucky we were, even though we had the Vietnam War. "

Though I agree with the sentiment (and did two tours in that war), I have to say that "young people" are just flat not interested in most of the stuff "we" are (were). Frankly, I think that we have to just accept that, with rare exceptions, time marches on. Stuff that seems interesting or important to us is just old, outdated junk to young folks. It's no different really than it was when I was 18...I had no time at all to what some 40 year old thought about anything - they were just "old people" with no idea of what was really going on. Sure, now I know that I was stupid but that's the way I saw things at that age and that's the way 18 year olds see it today - at least based on what I have seen with people that age.

I have to admit that one of my nieces - 21 - does seem very interested in some of this sort of stuff, everything from motorcycles to 60's music to learning to shoot firearms, but she seems one of those rare exceptions. Her 23 year old sister could not be bothered for one second with anything older than yesterday afternoon or any person older than maybe 28-30. She and her friends refer to most 30+ year olds as "beyond stupid" and "clueless." Again, WE know better and we also know that someday they will be looking at young people the same way we do but there is no point in arguing/fighting the reality.

Basically I just approach young folks as willing to offer whatever info I have on whatever IF it's asked for. Otherwise, I don't even comment, even if they something that is totally incorrect on some relevant subject.

Well, I still see "youngsters" interested in this stuff. Here is my son (32) last Sunday at an annual antique and classic motorcycle picnic. Loves the Beatles, Zep, and all proper music. Lots of younger riders there. He rode my MKIII and I was on the Trident. Unfortunately for me, my RH knee is playing up, and I had to have him kick the Trident. He owns my former 72 Combat, and I thought the Trident would take more to get used to than the MKIII. In from out of town in town with the car, or he would have been on the Combat.

acotrel said:

' Consider our forum as a fix to the educational system that you mention.'

Have you seen this ?

http://vimeo.com/20789680

Where are our replacements coming from when we are gone ? - not enough kids see our forum. Looking back on my life, I cannot believe how lucky we were, even though we had the Vietnam War. We lived in an environment where we were not wrapped in cotton wool, we could even build our own bikes and race them in open events. I believe we should continue to fight for our basic freedoms and not simply lie down and accept the plastic throw-away society. There are people and corporations on this planet who would like to eliminate constructive petrol heads .

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That's a nice video. "I don't have any money, if I had money, I would buy another motorcycle"

Looking after old bikes is a minority interest, for a minority of the population called motorcyclists. It's not surprising that your average teenager can't get it, it's not a particularly sexy hobby to them, but you have to remain positive. My sons typical, plays too much online gaming, and needs a kick now and again to get him out on his pushbike. He's 16 and deciding what to do in life. I'm an Engineer so I obviously tried to interest him in that but he's smart, and got his own ideas, wants to get a degree in economics and maths. Maybe one day after paying off the govt for all the loans he will have to take out, you hope he might just remember the stuff he sees me working on in the garage and shell out for an old bike, and he'd need advice then!

At my company, assuming no further global meltdowns, the estimated work we have planned for the next ten years projects a shortfall of several hundred engineers, we just can't get enough apprentices and graduates interested. The company is working hard now to change that with new training schemes, and lobbying schools/colleges, but the truth is that "doing stuff" doesn't seem to be so attractive to kids as it used to be. As long as you can make a lot of money, or get famous with little effort seems to be the way to go.

Well maybe where I live is just a bit different, But there are young guys and gals that ride the old bikes. It is really nice to see the gals riding on old bikes too. Although the numbers are not huge there are good size groups and it does make me smile a bit when I can see that look in their eyes when we ride. And maybe it's just a trendy thing for them now but they do seem interested when a bike they have never seen shows up. And as far as kick starting goes I too find it a part of being one with the machine, When she fires right up I get this sense of pride, I built this bike and it starts!!! LOL LOL. Have a great day guys, Chuck.

I have to "correct" one thing I said about my older niece thinking anything old is pointless/not worth her time...she recently advised me that "vinyl is much better than digital," stating it in such a way as to imply this is something folks of her age figured out and that no one as old as me would understand such a thing. I must have laughed for 20 minutes. But IMO, the vinyl thing with her is because it's currently trendy for some reason...why, I don't know. (yes, I still have all my albums, TT, etc and play them occasionally but 99% of the time I listen via iTunes/iphone...)