why light wheels make your bike turn easier

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You will note that there is no MotoGP Workshop video about steering geometry, effects of altering rake and trail etc. There is only a subtle difference between staying upright and crashing when the bike is set up to the optimum.
 
hobot holly's in conflict with the video 'wisdom's'.

SBTDT #7
1. I do not change position from locked down close as can be to tank and seat back when in a real hurry.
2. I do not have time to change positions like racers do in chicanes.
3. If trail changes by fork lengthen can be felt as helping or hindering going around securely then not accelerating much to me.
4. If ya can't trust your rear grip then must ease off and depend on smaller unpowered front patch to force the turn, ugh.
5. Keeping most mass over the rear allows rather faster twist of bike front around a turn than putting mass on it out ahead to swing about.
6. When in a hurry in sharp places an upright pilot's drag can brake enough to enter w/o brake and also helps pull bike around sharper.
7. I only put head off center enough to see next aim point not down into turn as too much stuff rushing by so close and same with vulnerable knee on a wide tank.
8. When on Gravel or off roading or doing parking lot max lean circles I sometime climb on the other side of the bike to help shove-hold it down, also nil room from stuff rushing by on inside anyway. Must lean rather far for this to work out.
9. Hanging way off on inside can move mass = Cog so far above and away from the tire patches they may leave surface horizontally a foot off road. Its only good for when ya don't trust bike to take it or can't lean any further, so cripples tend to need to.
10. Amen to less contact patch on edges and another reason cripples hang off to avoid unpredictable tire or CoG surprises.
11. If ya have to help force a bike over with body English, ugh, a good cycle will hold its angle w/o added effort, any amount of extra effort means that much less forces working against tire grip & fork-frame stability to force a turn, zip there goes another corner cripple Splat.
12. The balloon tires require steeper rake or too much work to turn and tip but then makes em prone to hi sides as so often described by Alan and others.
13.


10.
 
MotoGP™ Workshop: bike set-up and its fine margins

Ha only thing he said was we got expensive ways to measure stuff we set by guess and by golly yet no insights on what any of the changes does or don't. Wasted time.
 
MotoGP™ Workshop: Suspension
Worth while on setting forks softer for wet conditions and how their rear shock guts work. I already know about longer compliant fork travel on loose conditions and over fast pavement benefit. Opposite to Peels set up again.

MotoGP Workshop - Changing gears
Baby stuff and no mention of sprocket sizes on anti or pro squat with swing arm angle on handling turns.

MotoGP™ Workshop: Nissin Brakes
Interesting manufacture of brakes and some video on how wiggly the cripples get so pilots instinctively put a foot down just in case. Not my hurry style at all thank you.
 
daveh said:
Al-otment said:
Al - what we were talking about above was more race craft than road riding. Trail braking on the track allows you to reach the apex of the bend faster than you otherwise would, when you are already slowing down, if you see what we meant. It is not something you do on every corner.

After the apex, you can stand it up and gas it or use the more classic technique, depending on the bike, the rider's style and the shape of the corner.

Re police riding, a few years back I was in the south of France, and we met up with three off-duty motorcycle gendarmes who came for a spin with us in the mountains, on their own sports bikes. As you would expect, they were well-disciplined and maintained a good, fast rhythm. I have no doubt they would be very competent riding in all weather conditions and performing all the tasks that would be demanded of them a lot better than the average Joe. Put them on a track, and they would need to knuckle down and learn race craft just like anyone else.
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Yeah sorry, we do seem to be talking about different situations ie track and road. But same laws of physics still apply. I do plan to do a couple of track days next year on the Commando. I'll let you know how I get on, hopefully not off.
 
Hobot, if you have a look at the fork yokes on a Jawa speedway bikes there is almost nil offset. Why would that be ? I suggest the comparison between a road race bike and a dirt bike makes no sense , the requirements are totally different. On a road race bike, stepping out under power is t he last thing you want - on a dirt bike it is everything.
 
@Al-otment. See illustrations cited earlier in this thread where the red line indicates braking and black line indicates no brake. Completing all breaking before initiating the turn leaves you at maximum apex speed for all that distance when you could have been decelerating. Yes, laws of physics do still apply.

An excellent reference on riding is Tony Foal; I believe it is now on line. Excellent reading on motorcycle behavior and techniques.
 
ludwig said:
You also have to take in account that , when you tip the bike in a corner , it is slowing down because you are riding more on the outside , smaller diameter of the tires . So you have to give more throttle as soon as the bike is leaning over .
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Or pull in the clutch. :)
Or turn in tighter (equivalent of feather braking with rear wheel).

Lots of options.
 
There's such variation in pilots and conditions and bikes it varies on what control actions to use-work best the next few instants. Even my wife knows that adding some power helps ease around faster securer, or adding some smooth brake to stay in comfort zone. I'm expert enough in severe trail braking down off canter steeps on loose stuff and pavement with sand on it to point of front wash outs only saved by a instinct stomp on rear brake to pop back up and help with forks to full up right in line to nail front and slow before oncoming grill collision or cluster of cycles stopped for school break down just yards away or tree fall or deer mob or ATV's, or horse riders with happy go lucky big dogs, or frost in shaded turn apex...

Kieth Code early lesson is to ride each edge of track w/o any brakes, which to me is most stupid as Ludwig stated, very dangerous and not practical nor useful at all to go around even normal traffic speed safely. W/o some thrust or brake drag the suspension is in most slack state so most unstable to wiggle rebound so hard to find a settled balance lean fork point so can snatch ya down before ya know it.

If ya think-feel-know its best to divide tire traction vectors slowing while leaning & turning, which subtracts full grip form each vector and do it on lessening tire patch and shape, then best wishes perfecting it, I've sworn it off and found a better way for me to have fast fun beyond the hanging off with rear lifting trail braking risk taking.
 
Yes, Ludwig, everyone does it. We are talking about the front brake. On most entries, we cannot avoid braking while turning. There really is no such thing as "brake then turn;" rather, it is a seamless transition. To brake, stop braking, then start turning would unload the forks, cause the bike's front end to "porpoise" up and then back down as the steering load is applied and generally complicate steering.

Yes, Steve, on a dirt road where the use of the front brake on entries is discouraged by the threat of the front wheel washing out, it is a different analysis. There, when going fast, one often provokes an oversteer, by whatever method, to set the rear wheel out and sliding and to point the front wheel in, in the direction that you you want to go.
 
My last post on the subject of cornering. Have a look at Devon Cornering Clinic on you tube. This is my preferred method of cornering. If you don't agree, do what makes you happy.
 
Whatever turns you on. Try racing some time - the circumstances shown in the Devon video clip don't occur so often.
 
Number one rule is two material objects don't occupy same place at same time. Number 2 is never ride to point of getting scared. Number 3 is never ride > as scary fates can jump ya bones into nothing to loose antics, that may or may not save ya.

xbackslider, if you and your ride can take the harsh loads, ya can get going fast enough on pavement it behaves similar to loose Gravel, in regards to how fast rear tends to swing around or bike slips outs to about fall down or hooking back up jerk reactions that can become a hi side crash OR >>> transition into the straight steering off road mania you pleased me with being able to describe. My style is to be short as possible inline braking upright to be going slow enough "before" any significant lean begins so I can be hard on throttle to help it lean and fall over into the turn so forks have to be turned straight steering or washes right out no brake drag required. If ya only give half fast throttle going into a lean it tends to upright the bike against the lean needed. [Hard enough to spin tire will trip bike down, which is fantastic sensation like power steering on Peel.] This is what everyone loves to experience AFTER the apex - finally getting on hi throttle with good traction to let bike lift by itself - but by then the fun part of the turn [in my opinion] is already done and over with. I didn't know how to ride back in '99 as only had non leaning dragster experience and other bikes were tested in the 80's in city conditions were such a disappointment after the P!! i got into ultra lights and jet boat and skiing. Anywho doing it my way sometimes had the rocket ships passing me a bit before brake lights on into trail braking, which shocked me at first but not after I could fly pass them on almost wheelie acceleration while they were still timidly trying to slow up for their max traction corner point. Its so much faster that way for me the rockets could only catch up again if over half mile opens then would have to slow up so much for next turns I'd get back out of sight of them again. Same thing at Codes Corner school after I got familiar with first time on a real crotch rocket with low bars and rear set type position. Had cracked ribs and bad strain r wrist 3 days prior, after a nose over high side surprise on SV650 going 35 mph down to expected 30 mph by trail braking easy as could while watching for a friends drive way to visit, [in other words no intension at all to be risky riding] Must of hit extra loose spot being safe as possible to bleed some speed so no chance of wash out on the mild levelish turn on THE Gravel. Taken there with some spirit and no brakes SuVee was ok to get tires about 18" apart upper 40's mph, but in same place on Peel got em 2 feet apart in 60 mph zone and not loose it. Tarmac has no more mysteries to me on Ms Peel and other bike too unpredicable for such little gains I leave them to real hero's with great athletic endurance. I have not mastered braking and doubt I ever will so have to work around w/o them best I can.
 
Cornering for people not on the Viagra racing team...

why light wheels make your bike turn easier
 
Hobot, about scaring yourself while riding a motorcycle. There are two concepts - competence, and confidence. If the second precedes the first you get hurt. You should never get to the stage of scaring yourself if you observe the old Latin phrase 'festina lente' - make haste slowly - (work up to it). In that photo of me on the right of this post, I am facing turn one at Winton Raceway. Any time I go there it takes me about 5 laps to get up to race speed. I work progressively up to each of the corners until I go around out of control. When I do that I can always recover without doing damage, and I learn what max cornering speed looks like on the day. If I race, the first corner is taken at full race speed - none of the cautious tippy toeing around which many guys do off the start line.
 
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