Where has all my oil gone?

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mike996 said:
When I pulled the head/barrels on my 850, I found that the 1/8" drain hole from the single intake rocker box drains was partially blocked with silicone (tool of the devil) at the crankcase/barrel joint. So a passage that is already too small for the job was even smaller. So that could be part of the problem as well unless you know for sure how the barrel was sealed the last time (if ever) the barrel was pulled.

I timed the drainage of the rocker box on the bench by filling the rocker box with oil above the level of the valve seals and timing it to drain into a container under the head. As I recall (it's posted here somewhere) it was in the vicinity of several minutes. AND THIS was into a container directly under the head, not another 6-8 inches through that same size 1/4" passage to the crank case - where the passage turns sidewise into the timing case It's REALLY a poor design.
Click to expand...

Hi mike996, Interesting findings & info. about oil flow from the head or lack of it!

Maybe I could plumb in a lever valve into the oil line going to the head so I could regulate the amount of oil going to the head. It could be an electro-magnetic valve with a switch on the handlebar so you could operate it on the move . . . . . . ONLY JOKING :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

all the best

Kevin
 
If you find the rocker spindles correct, & your pilot jets correct, I can only tell you what a friend did once.
He thought the inlet guide seals were probably not needed, so he left the off. The bike smoked good & proper, on they went again.
I would hate for you to take it all apart just to find out though.
Has it been since you owned the bike? or was it Ok before.
 
TYPO correction! In my post, above, I said ..."not another 6-8 inches through that same size 1/4" hole" That SHOULD read, "the same size 1/8" hole." The oil passage for the int drain is 1/8 diameter for it's entire run to the timing case. The exh has TWO 1/8" passages, one at the outboard base of each valve spring, that go about 2" and then dump into the pushrod tunnels. The intake box has, as noted, one drain at the outboard base of the right int valve spring.
 
Flo said:
If you find the rocker spindles correct, & your pilot jets correct, I can only tell you what a friend did once.
He thought the inlet guide seals were probably not needed, so he left the off. The bike smoked good & proper, on they went again.
I would hate for you to take it all apart just to find out though.
Has it been since you owned the bike? or was it Ok before.
Click to expand...


Flo,

Thanks for the extra bit of info.

In some respects the smoke does not bother me too much, maybe it bothers other people around me!!! :roll:

I'm doing all these checks to be sure it not something that will cause any damage to the engine.

If I find it looks like the inlet valve seals are at fault I might just do some further testing to figure out how much oil I'm actually burning & if its not excessive I might just run the bike like this over the summer & pull the head over the winter.

Would I be correct in saying that if the inlet seals are letting oil leak into the cylinder that this does no harm to the engine apart from having a bit of smoke coming from the exhaust?

Kevin
 
mike996 said:
TYPO correction! In my post, above, I said ..."not another 6-8 inches through that same size 1/4" hole" That SHOULD read, "the same size 1/8" hole." The oil passage for the int drain is 1/8 diameter for it's entire run to the timing case. The exh has TWO 1/8" passages, one at the outboard base of each valve spring, that go about 2" and then dump into the pushrod tunnels. The intake box has, as noted, one drain at the outboard base of the right int valve spring.
Click to expand...


Wish your typo was correct!! 1/4" hole would shift the oil from the head pretty quick!

KEvin
 
Kevin, how much smoke is "a bit"? Does it smoke like a two stroke? Does it suffocate pedestrians at traffic lights?!! Would I be able to see it from my house across Dublin Bay?!!

When my Commando was burning oil before I lifted the head, it ran like a dream. (Turned out the exhaust valve guides were badly worn, inlets OK and seals intact.) However, you might have to whip the plugs out to clean them every so often, and carry some spare plugs, along with a 4 l can of engine oil strapped to the pillion seat!

I personally would not feel comfortable with a real oil burner for long. Kinda depends just how much it's burning. If it's a constant stream of smoke out of the exhausts then that's the signal to park it and deal with it.

Is the smoke coming from both pipes, or just one? Silencers oily? Or what colour are they after a good run?

We await further updates.

Dave
 
daveh said:
Kevin, how much smoke is "a bit"? Does it smoke like a two stroke? Does it suffocate pedestrians at traffic lights?!! Would I be able to see it from my house across Dublin Bay?!!

When my Commando was burning oil before I lifted the head, it ran like a dream. (Turned out the exhaust valve guides were badly worn, inlets OK and seals intact.) However, you might have to whip the plugs out to clean them every so often, and carry some spare plugs, along with a 4 l can of engine oil strapped to the pillion seat!

I personally would not feel comfortable with a real oil burner for long. Kinda depends just how much it's burning. If it's a constant stream of smoke out of the exhausts then that's the signal to park it and deal with it.

Is the smoke coming from both pipes, or just one? Silencers oily? Or what colour are they after a good run?

We await further updates.

Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,
I could use smoke signals to contact you from my side of the Bay :D

Difficult to explain something that visual verbally but I'll do my best.

At tickover you can't notice any smoke, if I blip the throttle I get puffs of white/grey smoke coming from mainly the LH exhaust. If I rev the bike up to 3-4K more smoke puffs out, difficult to describe how much but I would not like to be standing behind the bike when this happens.

On the move I've been looking in my mirrors to see if I can see any major amount of smoke while on the move, I can't see anything while on the move. I'll get a mate to follow me over the weekend as long as I don't have the entire bike stripped down to the crank by then :mrgreen:

Silencers have a black dry sooty coating, as do the spark plugs.

I still have to check the other rocker spindles for orientation, I'll do this later tonight.

Kevin
 
The oil burning wont damage anything in the engine but it will burn onto the the pistons/combustion chamber and require a lot of work to clean. Additionally, depending on severity, it can carbon up the ring grooves and require that you pull barrels so you can clean the piston ring grooves. It would be best to take care of this now... ;)
 
mike996 said:
The oil burning wont damage anything in the engine but it will burn onto the the pistons/combustion chamber and require a lot of work to clean. Additionally, depending on severity, it can carbon up the ring grooves and require that you pull barrels so you can clean the piston ring grooves. It would be best to take care of this now... ;)
Click to expand...


Fair enough, I'll keep pressing on with my investigations & hopefully will find something wrong, if you know what I mean :D


Kevin
 
If oil smoke I 'd think you would know by the very white plume and also smell it. Sounds more like rich mixture if it has grayness.

When you have your friend follow you -- if there is smoke when decelerating under engine braking, then it could be oil coming around the outside of the intake valve guides. When idling or decelerating with carb slides closed there is very high vacuum on the intake side and it can suck oil down the outside of the guide -- the part that is supposed to be a press fit into the head. Fairly common problem with 750s anyway.

If it is oil puddling in the head because of a clogged drain passage you may be able to get a very long drill bit from McMaster-Carr and twiddle it out.
 
batrider said:
If oil smoke I 'd think you would know by the very white plume and also smell it. Sounds more like rich mixture if it has grayness.

When you have your friend follow you -- if there is smoke when decelerating under engine braking, then it could be oil coming around the outside of the intake valve guides. When idling or decelerating with carb slides closed there is very high vacuum on the intake side and it can suck oil down the outside of the guide -- the part that is supposed to be a press fit into the head. Fairly common problem with 750s anyway.

If it is oil puddling in the head because of a clogged drain passage you may be able to get a very long drill bit from McMaster-Carr and twiddle it out.
Click to expand...

Hi batrider,

Thanks for the info. above. I plan on going for a spin over the weekend & I'll see what my mate sees from behind.

I checked all the rocker spindles and the holes are all pointing outwards, so it's not them.

My next move is to disconnect the oil line to the head & run the bike for 5 mins or so & see if the smoke goes away.

I just need to put everything back together now!!

Once again thanks for all the help, it's great having this type of support when checking something like this out.

Kevin
 
I take it you don't think your new 920 kit is allowing the sleeves to flex and distort causing your problems?
 
splatt said:
I take it you don't think your new 920 kit is allowing the sleeves to flex and distort causing your problems?
Click to expand...


Hi splatt,

You're kiling me :mrgreen:

Now I have another thing to worry about :shock:

Not sure I want to ask this but how would I know if the sleeves are flexing?

Kevin
 
splatt said:
I take it you don't think your new 920 kit is allowing the sleeves to flex and distort causing your problems?
Click to expand...
next thing you,ll be asking is have you conected the rocker feed pipes to the balance pipes on the intake manifolds :mrgreen:
 
chris plant said:
splatt said:
I take it you don't think your new 920 kit is allowing the sleeves to flex and distort causing your problems?
Click to expand...
next thing you,ll be asking is have you conected the rocker feed pipes to the balance pipes on the intake manifolds :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

Is that not where the rocker feed pipe is designed to be connected? I thought it was for lubricating the Amal slides so they would not wear out so quickly :lol:

Now where did I put my glass hammer & bucket of steam so I can keep working on my Norton :D

Kevin
 
click said:
chris plant said:
splatt said:
I take it you don't think your new 920 kit is allowing the sleeves to flex and distort causing your problems?
Click to expand...
next thing you,ll be asking is have you conected the rocker feed pipes to the balance pipes on the intake manifolds :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

Is that not where the rocker feed pipe is designed to be connected? I thought it was for lubricating the Amal slides so they would not wear out so quickly :lol:

Now where did I put my glass hammer & bucket of steam so I can keep working on my Norton :D

Kevin
Click to expand...
hi click,no the rocker feed pipes are not designed to fit there,because the balance pipes are downstream from the slides ,and the only way i can see that lube,ing the slides is by a few kick backs,check batery condition if you got a boyer fitted,and anyone thinking of fitting a 920 kit make sure its not the flexible sleeve type as this can cause problems :mrgreen:
 
Hi Lads,

Minor update:

1. Just been cleaning all the rocker covers up, gaskets etc. for bolting back together.

2. Checked all the rockers/tappets, RH exhaust was slightly out but only by a very small amount.

3. I had a look at the top of the pistons, they are very clean & show no signs of oil being burnt on them. When I say clean I mean I can almost see shiny metal, they are not washed clean i.e. too much petrol but just very clean (there is only about 1000 miles on them from new)

I'll button everything up Friday & take it for a spin on Sat. with the mate to see what's going on with the smoke thing.

I also plan on disconnecting the oil line to the head.

Apologies for asking this question as I think I asked it before but what size bolt do I need to plug the hold where the oil line attaches to the back of the timing cover?

All the best

Kevin
 
click said:
what size bolt do I need to plug the hold where the oil line attaches to the back of the timing cover?
Click to expand...

= 5/16" x 22 BSF.
 
Since we are in the mood for questions, I have a couple. Just another point of view.
Click wrote
"5. I can only think of three places the oil can go 1. Oil leak (I've no oil leaks from the engine) 2. Oil is burnt off through the combustion chamber 3. Oil is sitting in the head & not draining out quick enough OR the exhaust valve oil seal is shot OR the rocker spindles are not orientated correctly OR ALL three!!"
4. out the crank seal into the primary. This crazy new motor may have some serious crank pressure.

Have you opened the primary oil level plug to see how much oil is in there?

Click also wrote
"On the go I can't see any smoke coming from the back of the bike but when I stop & on tickover for a bit, when I rev the engine some smoke comes out, not as bad as a two stroke but very noticeable."

If you are smoking at tickover when you goose it a little, then maybe the pilot jet is too big or the air/pilot curcuit need freshening/cleaning? or something in that area. Maybe drop the needle a notch.
 
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