Where has all my oil gone?

click · May 9, 2010

ML said:
What is the breather set up you have on the bike? Incidentally the sump always has oil in it. As soon as you stop the motor, everything runs into it so it is not unusual to recover 200ml. I do think your wet sumping via the feed line is excessive, agree its time to recon the pump.

Mick

Hi Mick,

It had the standard MK3 breather going back into the oil tank. It smoked with this setup.

I installed the XS650 breather for other reasons & the bike still smoked.

If you fill the oil tank with the recommended amount of oil & after you run the engine, if 200ml ends up in the sump the dip stick will indicate an incorrect amount of oil? I know I'm nit picking but I'm just curious? I'm also aware that some sources state that there are two different lengths of dipstick. If you have the shorter type you could end up over filling the oil tank. Has anybody got a definitive answer to this?

I'm a bit obsessive about the oil level at the moment as I'm trying to understand the 'habits' of the bike so when I'm touring I have a clear idea of how much oil I need to add, if any

, during my trip.

I agree the oil pump needs a recon. I know other posters have said their tank will empty in 2-3 weeks, I'm not saying this is normal but I don't think it's highly unusual :roll:

All the best

Kevin

mike996 · May 9, 2010

The INTAKE rocker cover is the one you need to pull. The int side has much less than 1/2 the drain capacity of the exh side. Not saying that the exh rocker box couldn't be overwhelmed but it's less likely and even if it is, very little oil can be pulled into the combustion chamber at the exh valve. OTOH, oil can be pulled via the venturi effect into the exhaust stream but it is not usually much of an issue and is the reason that many older engines do not use exhaust valve seals.

The intake side is much more critical...

click · May 9, 2010

pvisseriii said:
Pulling the spindles is not a big job and is done on to bike. Do not spin them 180 unless you have confirmed that they are in wrong(facing the center of the head). There are different kind of spindles. Some have the flats, some are scrolled and some have just a hole. I had some with just a hole and ground the flat in and oriented them properly. Here goes,

1. Familiarize yourself with the parts breakdown and the operation of the rockers.
2. Pull tank, valve covers and spindle caps and covers.
3. Because these are hard I used a different thread and got away with it. 5/16, I believe. With a socket on the threaded rod and a washer and nut on the end and you have a slide hammer to remove the spindles.
4. These spindles are a somewhat press fit on the outside and less restrictive on the inside so heat about the outer area will be all that needed. A Map gas torch is cheap and very hot. Much hotter then propane.
5. At this point take note of the assembly order of the rocker spring (inboard) and thrust washer(outboard) of the rocker.
6. Rotate engine to relieve pushrod. Do one at a time.
Don't put the slide hammer in to the spindle yet. Wait until you get it hot.
7. Heat the area around the spindle realizing the head will dissipate heat quickly. Once you feel you have some heat into the area, thread tool into the spindle a few turns and dap it out with the socket against the washer /nut.
They may just come right but more heat will most likely be needed.
8. Rotate the spindle to face the flat away from the center of the head on all spindles. Exhaust facing forward, Intake facing the rear.
9. There is a hole that line up with the notch in the spindle when in place. Be sure it is evident.

That should keep you busy for a while. We'll be watching your post to help you follow through.

Hi,

Really appreciate the step by step guide.

I'll keep posting updates as I work my way through the figuring out whats happening stage & then hopefully finding a solution.

Many Thanks

Kevin

click · May 9, 2010

mike996 said:
The INTAKE rocker cover is the one you need to pull. The int side has much less than 1/2 the drain capacity of the exh side. Not saying that the exh rocker box couldn't be overwhelmed but it's less likely and even if it is, very little oil can be pulled into the combustion chamber at the exh valve. OTOH, oil can be pulled via the venturi effect into the exhaust stream but it is not usually much of an issue and is the reason that many older engines do not use exhaust valve seals.

The intake side is much more critical...

Hi,

Message understood :mrgreen:

It's 1am in the morning so going to bed soon, won't be doing any spanner work until later today :lol:

Really appreciate all the input :mrgreen:

All the best

Kevin

ML · May 9, 2010

Kevin,

As a rule with the dipstick, always get the oil level to the mid-way between High and Low. Press the cap down and remove, if its at High, you risk overfilling when the engine runs and the return pumps and it blows out making a mess. This is particulary true of the later 750 and 850's with the same oil cap / dipstick.
I always check the level and top up after a run. This means the minimum amount of oil is in the sump and what ever I add to the tank to the half way level means I have the right amount of oil and no risk of excessive return. Incidentally, from the High to mid level mark, is approximately 400cc.

Mick

pete.v · May 9, 2010

mike996 said:
The INTAKE rocker cover is the one you need to pull. The int side has much less than 1/2 the drain capacity of the exh side. Not saying that the exh rocker box couldn't be overwhelmed but it's less likely and even if it is, very little oil can be pulled into the combustion chamber at the exh valve. OTOH, oil can be pulled via the venturi effect into the exhaust stream but it is not usually much of an issue and is the reason that many older engines do not use exhaust valve seals.

The intake side is much more critical...

If one spindle is wrong, should all be checked for proper position?

daveh · May 10, 2010

Hi Kevin — just saw your thread and sorry to hear about your problems. You have had some good advice here from experienced owners. Luckily, Commandos are quite accessible to work on. I hope you can solve this without a top end strip. If you do have to strip it, a) with your mechanical experience, it would not be difficult and b) after you do it, you will be sure it's right and your mind will be at ease when you are hundreds of miles from home.

I did a top end strip to cure oil burning and refurbished the oil pump. The workshop manual is very good on both these matters, and any other details can be gleaned from this forum.

Have you had someone follow behind you to establish if it is smoking on acceleration or deceleration, or all the time?

PM or phone me if you would like to discuss.

Dave

bchessell · May 10, 2010

I suspected the rocker spindle once.I took a small dia wire and put a hook on it.I fed it in slowly and could feel the direction the spindle was in.The wire will drop in the hole.
Bruce

mike996 · May 10, 2010

Yes, re the wire trick - that's what I did to determine if my spindles were right. All were wrong. 3 were 180 out and one was about 60 degrees out - the tabs on the lock plate were too short to engage the spindle and it had spun on its own. That one was not delivering any oil because the spindle oil hole was not aligned with the oil delivery passage. The only lube that particular spindle/rocker got was whateve splash resulted from the other rocker. Check them ALL!!!

click · May 10, 2010

daveh said:
Hi Kevin — just saw your thread and sorry to hear about your problems. You have had some good advice here from experienced owners. Luckily, Commandos are quite accessible to work on. I hope you can solve this without a top end strip. If you do have to strip it, a) with your mechanical experience, it would not be difficult and b) after you do it, you will be sure it's right and your mind will be at ease when you are hundreds of miles from home.

I did a top end strip to cure oil burning and refurbished the oil pump. The workshop manual is very good on both these matters, and any other details can be gleaned from this forum.

Have you had someone follow behind you to establish if it is smoking on acceleration or deceleration, or all the time?

PM or phone me if you would like to discuss.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I hope you are keeping well & your Norton is still running sweet

My Norton is actually running quite well, it's just all part of the experience of ownership to sort out some of the issues I'm dealing with :roll:

The advice on this forum is fantastic, I've said this before it's like having a bunch of Norton experts in your garage while working on your bike but you get to drink all the beer :lol:

My plan is to check the orientation of the spindles using the wire trick mentioned above.

I'll post my findings later.

Kevin

click · May 10, 2010

bchessell said:
I suspected the rocker spindle once.I took a small dia wire and put a hook on it.I fed it in slowly and could feel the direction the spindle was in.The wire will drop in the hole.
Bruce

Hi,

Thanks for the wire tip, don't mind Ludwig & Mike996 they are only copying what you said :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Thanks for the advice lads, now where did I put that stash of wire I have!!

Kevin

Flo · May 10, 2010

In case nobody has mentioned it, I presume the hole in the head gasket is in line with the oil drain hole.

click · May 10, 2010

Flo said:
In case nobody has mentioned it, I presume the hole in the head gasket is in line with the oil drain hole.

Hi Flo,

If I end up taking the head off I'll add this to my list of things to check, I'm hoping I won't have to go that far!!

Kevin

Flo · May 10, 2010

No!
Just stick the wire down the hole, behind the right inlet valve or pour some oil in that cavity to see if it drains away.

click · May 10, 2010

Flo said:
No!
Just stick the wire down the hole, behind the right inlet valve or pour some oil in that cavity to see if it drains away.

Dohhh!! This wire is going to become a very useful tool!! Thanks for clearing that up.

Kevin

click · May 10, 2010

click said:
Flo said:

No!
Just stick the wire down the hole, behind the right inlet valve or pour some oil in that cavity to see if it drains away.

Click to expand...

Dohhh!! This wire is going to become a very useful tool!! Thanks for clearing that up.

Kevin

Hi Flo,

Small update: (left hand & right hand is judged as if you where sitting on the bike in a riding position)

1. Took the inlet rocker cover off & a small amount of oil dripped out of the lower left hand corner (the bike is on the side stand)

2. There is oil pooled in the head cavity & the left hand rocker & spring has a good amount of oil on them, the right hand rocker & spring don't have nearly as much oil on them.

I've been looking for the hole behind the right hand inlet valve and can't find it. Should it be visible when looking down into the head or do you have to feel around for it with the wire? I've looked in the workshop manual but can't find any reference to it.

Thanks

Kevin

chris plant · May 10, 2010

hi click,the hole flo mentioned is masked by the bottom valve spring retainer i beleive,hard to see and maybe just as hard to get wire down it,rather than take the head off,take the timing cover off and blow air through the hole the oil comes down from the head, this will also tell you whether the drain is blocked further down,ie, base of barrel

Flo · May 10, 2010

I have a spare head in my hand.
The drain hole is right in the corner of the casting about 45 degrees from the right hand valve spring.
Yes, the spring retainer is probably masking part of it, but still should see part of it, a cocktail stick or similar should locate it.
Hold the bike upright & see if any of the oil drains away.

click · May 10, 2010

Hi,

Another update:

1. I found the rear inlet drain hole approx. at 45 degrees to the right rear of the right hand inlet valve (thanks Flo

)
I used some guitar string & could push about 9inches down the hole which I would say brings it to the timing cover hole. The string is very thin so the drain hole could still be restricted but I'm happy that the hole is not completely block or blocked at all.

2. I poured some oil into the inlet cavity in the head & to be honest it did not look like it was draining? or was draining VERY slowly. I now have a better understanding of some discussions on this board about the poor head draining on the Commando head considering it is being fed oil under pressure.

3. I also checked the left had rear inlet spindle with some wire to see what way the hole is orientated. As best as I can tell the hole is pointing to the outside of the head. It difficult to tell poking around with a bit of wire!

So, what to do next.

1. I'm going to check the rest of the spindles using the wire method to see if I can tell which way the holes are orientated, don't know why but I have a feeling they are all correctly orientated but I'll have to wait & see.

2. If I'm no happy with the wire check I'll get a slide hammer, heat the head & nudge a spindle out to have a look.

Just thinking ahead, if all the spindles are correctly positioned & the drain holes are all clear does it point more towards valve oil seals?

I'm also thinking of putting it back together & trying the disconnecting of the oil feed to the head & run the bike for 5 mins to see if the smoke goes away. This would at least give me an indication if the problem is actually in the head.

Kevin

mike996 · May 10, 2010

When I pulled the head/barrels on my 850, I found that the 1/8" drain hole from the single intake rocker box drains was partiially blocked with silicone (tool of the devil) at the crankcase/barrel joint. So a passage that is already too small for the job was even smaller. So that could be part of the problem as well unless you know for sure how the barrel was sealed the last time (if ever) the barrel was pulled.

I timed the drainage of the rocker box on the bench by filling the rocker box with oil above the level of the valve seals and timing it to drain into a container under the head. As I recall (it's posted here somewhere) it was in the vicinity of several minutes. AND THIS was into a container diretly under the head, not another 6-8 inches through that same size 1/4" passage to the crank case - where the passage turns sidewise into the timing case It's REALLY a poor design.

Where has all my oil gone?

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