Where has all my oil gone (Part 2)

Hi Lads,

I started a previous topic about my oil level which turned into some helpful advice on how best to setup my Norton.

I did about 200 miles last weekend and on a private road :roll: had the Commando up to 90, confirmed on the GPS.

I did not use the bike during the week & I'm just preparing the bike for another Spin on Sunday.

I drained the sump & poured it back into the oil tank I also checked the level in the chaincase and it was fine.

I had a good level of oil in the tank before the run, approx. half way between low & high on the dipstick. After pouring the oil back into the oil tank from the sump its not even registering on the dipstick.

I know you should start the engine for 2-3 mins & then check the oil level BUT if I drain the sump & check the primary chaincase would this be about the same amount of oil in the oil tank compared to starting it up for 2-3 mins? I know there can be some oil around the engine but surely not that much?

I'm trying to judge how much oil I'm using, I don't have any obvious leaks, no oil dripping under the crankcase or around the head, everything seems dry.

The reason for my enquiry is I plan on doing a 1000 mile trip soon & need to know how much oil I'm using so I bring enough for top-ups!

Thanks in advance

Kevin

Tell us about your engine. Where was the oil level at when you pulled in from your ride ?

Greg

gjr said:

Tell us about your engine. Where was the oil level at when you pulled in from your ride ?

Greg

Click to expand...

Hi Greg,

Engine is running fine. It has a 920 conversion with about 800 miles on the rings/bore. I was getting a small amount of smoke from the exhausts but from a previous post it seemed more like a carburation issue than oil burning. I got the carbs worked on by a forum member, thanks Dave, and the bike is now running a lot cleaner on the low end. I also changed from BP7ES to BP6ES and the plugs are running OK. A lot less sooty at low revs (dry soot not wet)

I did check the level about an hour after my run & it was not registering on the dipstick.

It's too late to start the bike up, my neighbors would not be impressed!! I'll do this tomorrow & see what the level is like but as I said above I don't expect it to be much different.

Kevin

Did you pour the oil out of the sump to the tank just after the ride or days later. If you did it right after the ride, some oil still reside in the upper end and in the timing shest. Start the bike in the am and withness the oil returning to the tank. After 2 or 3 minutes, shut down and recheck and see what you have.
If drained days later, nevermind.

click said:

Engine is running fine. It has a 920 conversion with about 800 miles on the rings/bore. I was getting a small amount of smoke from the exhausts but from a previous post it seemed more like a carburation issue than oil burning. I got the carbs worked on by a forum member, thanks Dave, and the bike is now running a lot cleaner on the low end. I also changed from BP7ES to BP6ES and the plugs are running OK. A lot less sooty at low revs (dry soot not wet)



Kevin

Click to expand...

With 800 miles on it, I doubt that the rings are seated. Top up the oil and ride it. Break it in like a brand new bike. Vary the rpm and slowly increase the load and max rpm. Keep an eye on the dipstick and refill as necessary (every gas stop or sooner). No sense burning up a new motor. See what your oil consumption is at 1500 miles.

Greg

pvisseriii said:

Did you pour the oil out of the sump to the tank just after the ride or days later. If you did it right after the ride, some oil still reside in the upper end and in the timing shest. Start the bike in the am and withness the oil returning to the tank. After 2 or 3 minutes, shut down and recheck and see what you have.
If drained days later, nevermind.

Click to expand...

Hi,

Check the oil a week later & drained the sump so should have been plenty of time for oil to drain down from the top end.

Thanks for the reply.


Kevin

gjr said:

click said:

Engine is running fine. It has a 920 conversion with about 800 miles on the rings/bore. I was getting a small amount of smoke from the exhausts but from a previous post it seemed more like a carburation issue than oil burning. I got the carbs worked on by a forum member, thanks Dave, and the bike is now running a lot cleaner on the low end. I also changed from BP7ES to BP6ES and the plugs are running OK. A lot less sooty at low revs (dry soot not wet)



Kevin

Click to expand...

With 800 miles on it, I doubt that the rings are seated. Top up the oil and ride it. Break it in like a brand new bike. Vary the rpm and slowly increase the load and max rpm. Keep an eye on the dipstick and refill as necessary (every gas stop or sooner). No sense burning up a new motor. See what your oil consumption is at 1500 miles.

Greg

Click to expand...

Hi Greg,

I did a compression test about a month ago & got 180 on each bore, exactly the same (remember 920 conversion!)

There is a big debate about running in, some say 2-300 miles, some like yourself say longer.

Logic says if I'm missing oil, & its not in the engine it's got out :roll: . Only two ways it can get out leaks or being burnt in the combustion chamber. I'm aware oil can leak into the primary but I've already checked the level in there & it's fine.

I'll clock up more miles & see what happens.

I've been measuring the oil level with a steel ruler, using it like a dip stick & placing it in the oil tank so it touches the bottom & I measure the height of the oil. I'm going to start the bike up today for 2-3 mins. Measure how much oil is in the tank. Top it up slowly so it's just at the bottom of the dip stick & measure the height of the oil. Then top in off again so the oil level is half way between the bottom of the dipstick & high, measure again.

I'll then know how much oil it takes to go from low to the middle of the dipstick & what heights the oil is at (this is useful if the oil is not registering on the dipstick)

I'll report back later today on how I got on.

Kevin

I think the marks on the dipstick are one pint apart. If you went from 1/2 to off the end of the stick, you would be down about a pint. 200 miles at 50 mpg (ymmd) takes 4 gallons. In that case the mix ratio would be 32:1, which would be hardly noticible in the mirrors.

Greg

gjr said:

I think the marks on the dipstick are one pint apart. If you went from 1/2 to off the end of the stick, you would be down about a pint. 200 miles at 50 mpg (ymmd) takes 4 gallons. In that case the mix ratio would be 32:1, which would be hardly noticeable in the mirrors.

Greg

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Hi Greg,

That's really interesting, many thanks for the calculations I thought if I was 'burning' that much oil it would be like the bat bike using a smoke screen to get away!! :lol: By you calculations I'd be using 5 pints of oil per 1000miles!! That seems an awful lot to me :cry:

So I could be burning a fair bit of oil without it being very noticeable, interesting.

I did a bit of testing before I go out for a spin. Checked the level in the oil tank after draining the sump & pouring it back in. I had to add 150ml of oil to get it JUST to the tip of the dipstick.

Started the bike for 3-4 mins at tickover, plenty of oil being returned to the tank good pressure etc. Stopped & checked, no sign of oil on the dipstick?

Had to add 350ml of oil just to get oil to register on the tip of the dipstick!!!

My conclusion is this, the pump, pumps oil quicker than it sucks, so there is always oil in the sump (no air locks etc.) This means when you drain the sump & pour it back into the tank & check the level you are going to 'loose' some of this oil into the sump. in my case about 350ml.

So, the amount of oil you need is the correct amount in the tank + whatever your sump tends to take. Running the bike for 3-5mins does the same thing & allows you to get the correct level for your bike.

I know I'm way over complicating this :roll: after I do an oil change I'll know exactly how much oil I've put in the bike to get the correct levels & then I can accurately assess how much oil I'm burning.

I'll go for about a 100mile spin & check all my levels again, more anon.

Kevin

click said:

My conclusion is this, the pump, pumps oil quicker than it sucks, so there is always oil in the sump (no air locks etc.)

Click to expand...

The scavenge is normally engineered to have a greater pumping capacity than the supply (about 50% extra for the Commando pump).

If the supply pumped more oil to the engine than the scavenge was capable of returning to the tank then the crankcase would slowly fill up with oil, and the level in the tank would drop, and a "wet sumped" engine would never clear itself, if the scavenge is not clearing most of the oil from the sump then there may be a problem, but of course there should always be some oil in the sump.

click said:

gjr said:

Tell us about your engine. Where was the oil level at when you pulled in from your ride ?

Greg

Click to expand...

I did check the level about an hour after my run & it was not registering on the dipstick.

Kevin

Click to expand...

Not a good sign. After a ride your oil level should be at the top. Did you fill the tank correctly?

My conclusion is this, the pump, pumps oil quicker than it sucks, so there is always oil in the sump (no air locks etc.) This means when you drain the sump & pour it back into the tank & check the level you are going to 'loose' some of this oil into the sump. in my case about 350ml.

Click to expand...

No. The suck side is designed to be twice the capacity of the pressure side. Only a cup of oil remains in the sump when the engine is running.

Try this: Fill oil to the lower dipstick mark. Start & idle for one minute. Put more oil in until it shows half way between the marks. Ride the bike a couple of miles and check oil level immediately afterward. It should be at the same level or higher. If not, you have issues with the scavange side of the pump.

Hi L.A.B. & Maylar,

Thanks for putting me straight about the pump, it sucks quicker than it pumps, got it now!

Just back from a 50 mile spin, every town I came to had a traffic jam entering the town so I just did a u-turn & cut my spin short.

Checked the level before the run by running the bike for 3-4 mins on tickover, oil was just hitting the bottom of the dipstick.

After the 50 mile run just checked the oil level & it's gone up to just touching the "L" mark, so my oil level has gone up :shock:

I'll keep monitoring the level over the next few spins, I have some good base levels now to check from.

More anon.

Kevin

My way to know proper level is just over fill oil and run
the snot out of it for hour or so then check on final return
and begin the last major oil mess guess wipe down.

Same in primary and gear box, all will seek their own max level
and non agrees with factory manual or indicators or spill plugs.

On end of too short dip stick I put a small chain with a super magnet
on it to dangle in oil collecting ferric stuff and to reveal level.

Thing is on rare occasions oil can be lost while riding
and not realize it till in trouble but most rides are broken
up enough can check under seat or is a few cases glance at a
sight tube.

BTW oil temp gauge is very informative, more than
oil level if enough to run. i put one in front of oil tank.
Temps change significantly over intervals of a minute or so.

hobot

hobot said:

My way to know proper level is just over fill oil and run
the snot out of it for hour or so then check on final return
and begin the last major oil mess guess wipe down.

Same in primary and gear box, all will seek their own max level
and non agrees with factory manual or indicators or spill plugs.

On end of too short dip stick I put a small chain with a super magnet
on it to dangle in oil collecting ferric stuff and to reveal level.

Thing is on rare occasions oil can be lost while riding
and not realize it till in trouble but most rides are broken
up enough can check under seat or is a few cases glance at a
sight tube.

BTW oil temp gauge is very informative, more than
oil level if enough to run. i put one in front of oil tank.
Temps change significantly over intervals of a minute or so.

hobot

Click to expand...

Hi hotbot,

I never know if you are joking or not

I agree that each bike will have it's own levels and these might not match what is in the workshop manual. Your way of finding the levels is interesting but not for me :roll: I'll just keep an eye on the levels over a period of time & see what happens :wink:

Overall it's all good, the bike is running great & the sun is blazing down on Dublin :mrgreen:

Kevin

I'm not joking unless I make it obvious and no longer a Commando newbie
excess waste of time to creep up on what I found in the end - to messing
about for the plain truth of what Commandos fluid capacity actually is.

About all my first motorcycle events were dramatic lesions right
out the box.
In pre-Ms Peel's case, the son of owner of cycle shop, now a small
engine place - that first sold this Combat new,
checked for oil, looking deep in tank
to see very low oil so he added 2 quarts and started up couple
kicks and while grining to hi heaven blip ping up a sale - we
had to step back as 2 quarts of oil spread over the floor.
He sheepishly laughed and said Hey! I also get a free oil
change thrown in the deal. No joke I bought it on the oily spot.

hobot

click said:

Hi L.A.B. & Maylar,

Checked the level before the run by running the bike for 3-4 mins on tickover, oil was just hitting the bottom of the dipstick.

After the 50 mile run just checked the oil level & it's gone up to just touching the "L" mark, so my oil level has gone up :shock:
Kevin

Click to expand...

That's somewhat normal with a less than perfect oil pump.

In a perfect world, the oil pump would scavange the crankcase even at idle and thel level you get after a couple minutes of idling would be the real thing. Pumps being what they are, it sometimes requires some riding beore the sump gets pumped out. My brand new $$$ oil pump from Norvil does that and it annoys me to no end.

Idle for 2 minutes, fill to 1/2 way between the marks. Check after a ride. I make it a point now to check oil level before putting the bike away.

Hi Maylar,

Thanks for the reply. I have on my Norton list of things to do a pump recon. which I plan on doing over the Winter.

Is anybody doing an upgraded pump? I know you can still buy them new, but are the pumps available the original design or has anybody improved on the original design?

Kevin

David Comeau is offering indexed and tested oil pumps and request
cores and cog to mix and match.
http://atlanticgreen.com/norton.htm

hobot

click said:

Hi Maylar,

Thanks for the reply. I have on my Norton list of things to do a pump recon. which I plan on doing over the Winter.

Is anybody doing an upgraded pump? I know you can still buy them new, but are the pumps available the original design or has anybody improved on the original design?

Kevin

Click to expand...

We've discussed oil pumps here before. The general conscious is that the stock pump is relatively good, if the tolerances are acceptable.

If the body and gears aren't worn, reworking the endplate is easy, but time consuming.

Greg