What is wrong with the NOC?

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I hope not ... the costs will swallow the NOC and AN and still leave nothing resolved.
 
swooshdave said:
You are 100% wrong. You cannot use existing parts to make a drawing from and expect it to be absolutely correct.

And if you are the original parts suppler and you make more parts you are as genuine as it gets.

Prove me wrong.
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Dave,
Looks like Fullauto did just that!
Drawings not required...
Fullauto believes newer manufactured parts are more accurate (can’t really comment on that one to be honest, just poking the stick back at you. ;))

All that aside, I am with you on this one, all parties need to remember that this damages themselves in the eyes of customers (ANIL) and members (NOC). It needs sorting for the benefit of owners of classic machines - although I have to admit that is not me...
John
 
John,

'' Benefit of owners of classic machines'' could not agree more, think about it!!
 
If the NOC was bankrupted by legal action by ANIL that would be an extremely sad day, to say the least. I can imagine a large percentage of the 1,400 members buying from ANIL quite often. Do ANIL really want to hack off such a large number of customers?

Ian
 
The UK court system is not set up for punitive damages like the US is, the basic concept is the Claimant has the right to be put back in the same position before the issue started if they win the case. So if AN base the claim on requiring procession of the drawings then if they win the drawings get handed over, they don't get damages unless they can show them ie that by not having the drawings they lost money, very hard to back that one up. The problem will be the costs of the lawyers, the losing side can expect to pay the costs for both sides unless its run through the Small Claims route, then both sides pay their own costs regardless.

You do see cases in the UK where people go bankrupt, but this is where they did not accept the first judgement and then appeal and appeal again, this racks up all the lawyer fees and as they lose repeatably they pay the lot.
 
No its the costs... around £1000 per hour for a top brief.. And it will take them some time to chase all the non sequiturs down . And then, when you get to court , just remember Britannia waives the rules. The saddest and most stupid thing about this is that AN will be responsible for driving changes through the NOC that will deny them a platform with the membership..
 
Nortoniggy said:
If the NOC was bankrupted by legal action by ANIL that would be an extremely sad day, to say the least. I can imagine a large percentage of the 1,400 members buying from ANIL quite often. Do ANIL really want to hack off such a large number of customers?

Ian
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The last thing that ANIL wants is to harm the NOC. Seriously, if they have been sitting on the documents for 27 years are they helping or hurting Norton owners? Does anyone actually think the NOC is capable of having parts produced and sold successfully? How's their track record on that?
 
The Club can have their position explained to them by a lawyer in their pay. That won’t cost them all that much.

Going to court is a gamble. Never gamble what you can’t afford to lose.
 
Eljahara said:
Dave,
Looks like Fullauto did just that!
Drawings not required...
Fullauto believes newer manufactured parts are more accurate (can’t really comment on that one to be honest, just poking the stick back at you. ;))

All that aside, I am with you on this one, all parties need to remember that this damages themselves in the eyes of customers (ANIL) and members (NOC). It needs sorting for the benefit of owners of classic machines - although I have to admit that is not me...
John
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I never said you can't make a part from a pattern, but you run the high RISK of it not fitting every time. As I said before getting a perfectly made part to the original specs on a 50 year old bike is a gamble anyways. But if it's made to spec if it doesn't fit you know it's not the part but the rest of the bike to blame.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
The Club can have their position explained to them by a lawyer in their pay. That won’t cost them all that much.

Going to court is a gamble. Never gamble what you can’t afford to lose.
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What does the NOC have to lose in turning over the parts drawings? Potential income if they should ever have the parts made? If anyone wants to get rich they should get into the Norton parts business... :rolleyes:
 
swooshdave said:
What does the NOC have to lose in turning over the parts drawings? Potential income if they should ever have the parts made? If anyone wants to get rich they should get into the Norton parts business... :rolleyes:
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the NOC may have nothing to lose, but the individual members may have an eye on the value of their own parts laid up. a good usable dommie barrel (since that is what got this going) is not an easy thing to come by these days. many people are willing to pay a reasonable amount for them. not saying that's it, but it may be.
 
swooshdave said:
What does the NOC have to lose in turning over the parts drawings? Potential income if they should ever have the parts made? If anyone wants to get rich they should get into the Norton parts business... :rolleyes:
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Dave
I think that is the issue in a nutshell - what do both parties actually want?
ANIL were offered drawings but refused them....what was offered and why was it refused?
NOC say they wish to commission parts ...but haven’t done so for 27 years!
If ANIL wish to manufacture parts they could do so from a copy of the drawings, if NOC wish to commission parts - use ANIL?
Think this might be a real world example of the gulls in Nemo - mine, mine, mine, mine, mine!
John
 
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swooshdave said:
What does the NOC have to lose in turning over the parts drawings? Potential income if they should ever have the parts made? If anyone wants to get rich they should get into the Norton parts business... :rolleyes:
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In court, they could lose court costs.
 
Eljahara said:
Dave
ANIL were offered drawings but refused them....what was offered and why was it refused?
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ZFD said:
We did not take the NOC offer up for the drawings because I did not want to weaken our legal position. The barrels are not a commercially exciting project. We may never see our money back on the tooling and effort going into them. I see them as a service for our customers; the aren't vital for the survival of the company, and probably not even profitable.
What is vital is to access the information on the (reputedly) 5000 drawings the NOC has been sitting on for 27 years. I am sure there is a lot of parts there that we could either re-manufacture, or check dimensions on for parts we have since, in desperation, made new drawings for.
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I'm inferring that the drawing for the barrels were offered not the 4,999 other drawings. From a legal standpoint if you accept only some of the drawings it may put you in a position of admitting that the others are not yours to have.

It looks like the ANIL position is that the factory drawings are the property of Andover Norton and they should have been returned to them when the dealer closed.

Here's an analogy, if your bike is in a shop and the shop closes and sells your bike to another person do you have a right to the bike?
 
Oh dear. When the solicitors sit down to do their legwork the tree trunk gets pulled out and you see the mass of roots and branches attached to it. This is essentially what we have seen at this point in the thread. Nobody has clean shorts if you check with the laundry.
ANIL has done a lot for us just look at their catalogue. The Club has preserved a stack of original material which is really not replaceable.
In addition other people have also run up a lot of bits of great use to us and they have no dog in the fight or if they did it has passed such as
Mick with the Norvil dust up. RGM turns out a lot of stuff and has stayed in business for a long time. I wont comment on the bearded one.
My point is that somebody can bitch about any of the above right wrong or whatever. Free market, dont trade with the company you dont like
dont join the club either. Free speech on this forum allows for strong market pressure to punish the dubious trader.
I have to agree with the point that sometimes court is the only place where a decision can be reached. And that doesnt mean that that
decision will be greeted with huzzahs and joy to all.
 
Can anyone imagine how contentious this whole thing would be if it was about real money? Ironically pride can sometime cost more than anything.

I remember the whole AHMRA/Team Obsolete wars. That's making this scuffle look like nothing. :confused:
 
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