What is wrong with the NOC?

Status
Not open for further replies.
What, exactly is at issue as far as parts? Let's say these "drawings" didn't exist at all. What difference does it make? Are these drawings necessary for anything other than bragging rights? As noted in other posts, parts have been made by reverse-engineering or copying existing parts. Heck, the Soviets (as they were known then) built there own B-29 bombers by reverse-engineering interned US B29s during the war. Making some Norton parts doesn't seem too complex by comparison, especially given today's machinery. :)
 
Mike,
You are correct, this is not about the production of parts. ANIL have readily admitted that “they have had to recreate drawings due to the intransigence of NOC” This is about the right to be the “genuine producer” of Norton parts and having the drawings from NOC allows ANIL to assert their IP rights - as they claim to have these rights. ANIL owningthe drawings would prevent others (presumably Norvil and Fullauto) from producing “genuine” Norton parts.
Not bragging rights, it is a pissing contest which leaves customers still searching flea-bay and Craig’s list for suitable replacement parts
John
 
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/news/

If I was a member I’d be livid. When a club is detrimental to the hobby they need to go.

Let's just look at the way the original thread was started. Obviously, Dave read Joe's rant in his own newsletter and decided that the NOC were bad people and that Joe was "looking after " Norton owners all over the world and beyond with his pious need to serve Nortonkind. Subsequently, others jumped on the bandwagon, heaping it on the NOC and their committee.

Perhaps he should have titled the thread, "What's going on here"? to perhaps foster a more friendly, even handed discussion regarding the perceived problem. As it stands, it is a very divisive thread, which cannot, in itself, provide a solution to the "problem". It just seems to be a typical, heavy handed, approach to getting what Joe wants.

Look at it from the NOC point of view. The drawings were bought, decades ago, when nobody was really interested, and they saw it as a way to preserve Norton history that would otherwise have ended up as landfill. Another result of the clusterf@#k that was (is?) the British motorcycle industry.

Where does it all end, AN? Gangs of AN thugs knocking on ex-NVT workers doors, demanding the return of that un-numbered set of crankcases that we know you stole from the factory in 1975?
 
So if I go out and make, say oil pumps, for a Norton and call them Onderpumps not Norton pumps and just say they will fit a Norton then Im making
illegal parts? My actions are, ,well, actionable because ANIL owns the rights to making Norton pumps?
 
So if I go out and make, say oil pumps, for a Norton and call them Onderpumps not Norton pumps and just say they will fit a Norton then Im making illegal parts?
Onder
Obviously not - I can get replacement parts for my Mini from any auto store and they will work fine but if I want genuine Mini parts I need to go to a BMW - Mini supplier.
This is the issue, ANIL want the right (and recognition) to be the ONLY “genuine” Norton supplier
 
What, exactly is at issue as far as parts? Let's say these "drawings" didn't exist at all. What difference does it make? Are these drawings necessary for anything other than bragging rights? As noted in other posts, parts have been made by reverse-engineering or copying existing parts. Heck, the Soviets (as they were known then) built there own B-29 bombers by reverse-engineering interned US B29s during the war. Making some Norton parts doesn't seem too complex by comparison, especially given today's machinery. :)

This is still a fallacy that some of you have, reverse-engineering isn't the same as engineering. Would you rather fly in a Boeing B-29 or a Soviet copy?
 
Let's just look at the way the original thread was started. Obviously, Dave read Joe's rant in his own newsletter and decided that the NOC were bad people and that Joe was "looking after " Norton owners all over the world and beyond with his pious need to serve Nortonkind. Subsequently, others jumped on the bandwagon, heaping it on the NOC and their committee.

Perhaps he should have titled the thread, "What's going on here"? to perhaps foster a more friendly, even handed discussion regarding the perceived problem. As it stands, it is a very divisive thread, which cannot, in itself, provide a solution to the "problem". It just seems to be a typical, heavy handed, approach to getting what Joe wants.

Look at it from the NOC point of view. The drawings were bought, decades ago, when nobody was really interested, and they saw it as a way to preserve Norton history that would otherwise have ended up as landfill. Another result of the clusterf@#k that was (is?) the British motorcycle industry.

Where does it all end, AN? Gangs of AN thugs knocking on ex-NVT workers doors, demanding the return of that un-numbered set of crankcases that we know you stole from the factory in 1975?

I'm just posting my opinion, man.

I just want the best parts possible for me and my mates. They just happen to come from ANIL in the widest offering, quality and price of anyone. If having those drawings from NOC helps ANIL then I'm 100% behind it. Because the NOC has done nothing about making parts from the drawings in 27 years and they won't for the next 270 years.
 
But would you not rather a set of Maney cases or a Fullauto head or any of the other parts that are...…. Never mind!

The amount of time and effort that went into the Maney and Fullauto products was extraordinary and the prices reflected it. Wouldn't it be easier to just have the original blueprints and go from there? Pretty sure both those parties would have loved that shortcut.
 
The amount of time and effort that went into the Maney and Fullauto products was extraordinary and the prices reflected it. Wouldn't it be easier to just have the original blueprints and go from there? Pretty sure both those parties would have loved that shortcut.

No, I wouldn't.
 
I'm just posting my opinion, man.

I just want the best parts possible for me and my mates. They just happen to come from ANIL in the widest offering, quality and price of anyone. If having those drawings from NOC helps ANIL then I'm 100% behind it. Because the NOC has done nothing about making parts from the drawings in 27 years and they won't for the next 270 years.


A recurring theme of your posts across a myriad of threads is that you worship the ground that AN walk on. You are so far up AN's arse that even your bootstraps won't save you. Just sayin'.
 
I'm just posting my opinion, man.

I just want the best parts possible for me and my mates. They just happen to come from ANIL in the widest offering, quality and price of anyone. If having those drawings from NOC helps ANIL then I'm 100% behind it. Because the NOC has done nothing about making parts from the drawings in 27 years and they won't for the next 270 years.

Actually the NOC have had parts made... parts that would not have been commercially viable . IF in fact these drawings were so important , I am puzzled that AN did not purchase them from Joe Francis Motors. But we are where we are and to express my prefered outcome is that the NOC retain control of the drawings BUT they should be available to whoever wants to look at them . a reference library of sorts.
 
Can anyone imagine how contentious this whole thing would be if it was about real money? Ironically pride can sometime cost more than anything.

I remember the whole AHMRA/Team Obsolete wars. That's making this scuffle look like nothing.
:confused:

thought that is what it's about
 

Two things brought up in this discussion:

a) Faults creeping in through copying from an existing part: our technical buyer and fully qualified engineer Ashley can detail the mistakes made on the Fullauto heads which were copied from an existing head. It starts with the alloy used and ends with dimensions that aren't quite to drawing. Though probably an exact copy of the sample head used for the 3D sizing up which was machined in the 1970s with typical British industry tolerances of the time. Which, eventually, add up to a result that isn't quite right.
what's the story with the alloy used? lotsa folks are hearing stuff for the first time
 
I'm just posting my opinion, man.

Swoosh, you’ve been on this forum for a long time, you should know better...

The only valid opinions are those that agree with Ken’s.

Freedom of speech is good, so long as it agrees with Ken.

Anyone who has a different opinion to Ken, or challenges his ideas, or even raises a question is wrong and stupid.
 
Fast Eddie & Swooshdave,

Oh Dear! Sorry I opened a can of worms by giving an example for reverse engineering. This thread is not about who is right or wrong in engineering.

Coming back to the subject matter: I was not personally involved with Andover Norton in 1991 but as one of their trade customers.
Hence I do not know if the drawings were offered to Andover Norton at the time by Joe Francis Motors. Personally I doubt it. It could have been questioned how they got hold of them in the first place.

From experience I know old Norton stuff is offered to entities like the VMCC and the NMM occasionally out of ignorance that Andover Norton exists and could do productive things with them- more so in the past than now.
 
if the original drawings were gifted or sold to francis motors by the factory drawing office , then sold on / gifted to the owners club when francis motors closed ( for preservation of records ) where does the IP infringment lie ?

the records would not be part of the sale of company assets / IP if it was already sold to another vendor prior to the JOE SIEFERT AN deal taking place

how can AN claim to have any legal rights to these original drawings ?

unless each individual drawing was contained in the company inventory at point of sale to AN ? if so why has AN waited to reclaim the missing drawings which TECHNICALLY should have been present in the inventory when they purchased the assets and IP from previous owners

as far as i can see the owners club have commited no IP or copyright infringments they have not offered re prints of the drawings for commercial gain just retained them in the club archive
as they bought them from Francis motors in 1991 in good faith and held them since without challange for 27 years
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top