welded wideline frame question

I'm glad I stick to riding Shetland ponies.

Horses suck anyways, I'll stick to motorcycles.

Rohan
I suggest the last Norton frames which were furnace brazed were garden gate and non- featherbed swing arm models. I've never in my life seen a factory made steel welded wideline featherbed frame, although the horrible slim line ones could have been - I wouldn't own one anyway, they are a waste of space . The first steel welded frames I ever saw were disgusting Japanese MIG welded ones, and I believe the commando ones were steel welded too. They are a disgrace, especially the Italian made ones. Egli frames are not rocket science, and one fitted with a commando motor can be beautiful.

Why would you waste your time building a bike using a Norton frame unless it was a manx or a triton using a wideline Featherbed ? :

Some old stuck gramaphone record again....

No-one here is/was discussing brazed lugged frames, except you, in confusion ?
Nortons did use them for 50+ years but.

If you don't have any Norton know-how, do some research before posting ??

grandpaul said:

But...wait...I thought we already had a group hug?

...sight...

Click to expand...

Worth shooting down rubbish replies, in case someone is taken in and does something foolish or irreversible ??
Some folks might learn something along the way too, since this knowledge is fast disappearing.

Sight ??

HINDsight.

acotrel wrote;
I suggest the last Norton frames which were furnace brazed were garden gate and non- featherbed swing arm models. I've never in my life seen a factory made steel welded wide line featherbed frame, although the horrible slim line ones could have been - I wouldn't own one anyway, they are a waste of space. The first steel welded frames I ever saw were disgusting Japanese MIG welded ones, and I believe the Commando ones were steel welded too. They are a disgrace, especially the Italian made ones. Egli frames are not rocket science, and one fitted with a commando motor can be beautiful Why would you waste your time building a bike using a Norton frame unless it was a Manx or a triton using a wide line Featherbed? : Quote;

Oh dear, this debate goes on and on :!:
it appears that some people are not aware of the reason why I want to build a Featherbed framed Norton. In the UK there is an annual road fund tax with a cut-off date from pre 1972, when it is free, and as pre 1973 Commandos are a bit thin on the ground and out of my price range, I aim to build a 500 twin as this will be sufficient for my needs, the Featherbed frame is the way I’m going, as there are a fair amount of used parts available in the UK.
Re; “I've never in my life seen a factory made steel welded wide line featherbed frame”
You are confusing welding with brazing as you yourself have termed this process. A steel welding rod does not flow under heat, but as you point out, a SIF welding/brazing rod will, which is the process which nearly all the Manxs, wide line, and slim line frames were made for Norton’s by Ken Sprayton and his team made at the Renold factory.
Re; “The first steel welded frames I ever saw were disgusting Japanese MIG welded ones,”
No argument there , but at times they did seem to improve, depending on whether they were made on Friday afternoon or Monday morning :!:

acotrel said:

. I've never in my life seen a factory made steel welded wideline featherbed frame,

Click to expand...

I ride one.

Just how many roadgoing Featherbed frames have you scraped paint off to see the welds?

Bernhard said:

Re; “I've never in my life seen a factory made steel welded wide line featherbed frame”
You are confusing welding with brazing as you yourself have termed this process. A steel welding rod does not flow under heat, but as you point out, a SIF welding/brazing rod will, which is the process which nearly all the Manxs, wide line, and slim line frames were made for Norton’s by Ken Sprayton and his team made at the Renold factory.
Re; “The first steel welded frames I ever saw were disgusting Japanese MIG welded ones,”
No argument there , but at times they did seem to improve, depending on whether they were made on Friday afternoon or Monday morning :!:

Click to expand...

Just to spell this out, in single letters, the vast majority of wideline featherbeds were steel tubing with STEEL filler wire.
My wideline featherbed has this.
All slimlines are welded with steel filler wire too.
As were all Commandos.

The ONLY featherbeds that were bronze welded were the featherbeds for manxes and inters - these had better than mild steel tubing, and were welded accordingly.
These have neat fillet welds, in bronze.

This would therefore mean that about 98% or 99% of featherbeds were steel tubing and with STEEL filler wire welding....

Have we got it yet ???

Like Rohan said,

all production featherbed and Commando frames were arc welded in mild steel. Manx racing frames were bronze welded in Reynolds 531. Modern replica featherbed frames can be almost anything, but they don't really count for this discussion.

There was at least one Dominator prototype built by fitting the twin engine and street equipment into a Manx racing frame, but that doesn't count as a production bike.

Ken

I thought there might have been a possibility that slimeline featherbeds were steel welded - bloody cheapskates, how disgusting. I must confess I've never really looked at them, I usually walk away in the opposite direction, even though a late dommie is a very good bike. For the cost of a slimeline, I can buy an excellent replica manx frame. If I was building a Triton or a manx or a Jawa engined racer, that is what I would use . At least it looks right . I once considered using a standard commando frame to build a second bike until I had a good look at one - Norton must have been joking - bloody appalling !

Here is a question - If you make the head stock out of strong material, how can you steel weld the frame without having stress relieving problems, cracking, unless you stress relieve the frame in the jig? Do you believe Norton did that ?

'This would therefore mean that about 98% or 99% of featherbeds were steel tubing and with STEEL filler wire welding....'

Rohan, I have never seen a non-slimeline featherbed which was steel welded, even amongst our locally made replicas. I saw one on which the main loops were not continuous but joined by a steel weld, I refused to buy it. A most difficult part of frame building lies in notching out the ends of the tubes. For steel welding fit-up is critical, that is why most of our guys use bronze welding for replica frames. If your Inter has a steel welded frame, have the welds been ground to hide the runs ?

JUst spoke to a friend who owns a manx framed triton. He said that the manx frames were phosphor bronze welded right through t o 1961 because of the chrome moly tubing use d. The later dommies etc were steel welded, because of the lesser requirement of the tubing used. I still cannot remember ever seeing a wideline feathe rbed frame w hich was steel welded. I'd like to know which years they were done that way ?

acotrel said:

. I still cannot remember ever seeing a wideline feathe rbed frame w hich was steel welded. I'd like to know which years they were done that way ?

Click to expand...

Mine left the factory in November 1956, if that's any help.

It does help. I'd have thought that the 500cc dominator of the early fifties which had the cast iron top end might have been the end model before the steel welded frames appeared. Most of the frames we see in Australian historic racing these days are bronze welded replicas which have had the head angle changed to make bikes with 18 inch wheels handle like Suzuki two strokes instead of horse drawn carts. There are many more Norton Atlases racing in one of the classes, than were ever imported into Australia.

Nortons used steel welded steel frames for the early road featherbeds from 1951/2 until the end of the Commandos, circa 1977.
This was the revolution in frame making.
At a quick count, 100,000+ frames, easily.
You have finally caught up with the new technology news, 60 years later !!

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, you now seem to have it in bucketfuls.
We can't wait for the next installment.....

Slimline frames....whats the problem with them?? I had a 650ss which was probably the best bike I ever had, it was certainly in the top two best bikes.
Anyway, I always understood that Reynolds 531 was the Reynolds version of chrome moly tube and therefore very similar to T45 etc. On the drawings for a featherbed the geometry was exactly the same for a manx or Domi.....BUT the Manx frame material was Reynold 531 and it was bronze welded, the Domi frame was a good grade of steel and electric welded. I seem to remember that if 531 was/is electric welded, its advantage in being stiffer than ordinary steel tube was lost because of the extra heat required, that's why it was bronze welded, which takes place at a lower temperature.
Incidentally for what its worth, I was told that a Commando frame/swinging arm was a few pounds lighter, but several times stiffer than a featherbed with swinging arm. They were tested by securing the steering head, and trying to rotate the rear wheel spindle.

cheers
wakeup

Quotes from a letter written by Ken Sprayson in the May edition (No.306) of NOC Roadholder magazine:

The Norton Featherbed frame went into production at Reynolds Tube Co. in early 1951. Initially this was only for Manx racing machines and although the first frames were made in Reynolds 531 tubing, Norton's original intention was to have only the works team bikes in 531; 'over the counter' racers would be in slightly cheaper Reynolds 'A' quality material. Both of these tube specifications would be 1 1/4" x 16swg main frame tubing with a 3/4" x 16swg sub frame bolted on......

......Norton subsequently decided that all Manx frames would be '531' though frames for the International model would be in quality tubing......

.....Featherbed road frames were in production by 1953 but these were in 'B' quality mild steel of 1 1/4" x 14swg and arc welded instead of bronze welding used on the Manx and Inter....

Click to expand...

(Just in case there's anyone who actually doesn't know who Ken Sprayson is)
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/books/ken_ ... e_man.html

So maybe we could summarize (again!) the real facts, not opinions?

1. Manx featherbed frames were all made of 531 manganese-moly (not chrome-moly) steel tube that was bronze welded.

2. All production road bike wideline and slimeline featherbed frames were arc-welded/electric welded mild steel, even if acotrel has never seen one.

3. All Commando frames are arc-welded/electric-welded steel.

What could be simpler?

Ken

L.A.B. said:

(Just in case there's anyone who actually doesn't know who Ken Sprayson is)
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/books/ken_ ... e_man.html

Click to expand...

Ken Sprayson (Mr Reynolds) published all this and more in a book last year too.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ken-Sprayson-Fr ... 095649756X

He has also contributed to, and been the subject of, many frame-related articles in the motorcycling press over the decades, so its no secret.. As well as turning up at every (?) TT in the Reynolds van as a frame repair service. Frames haven't always been the strong reliable things we take for granted these days - didn't a famous Triumph winner cross the finish line with the downtube broken clean through one year (late 40s)...