welded wideline frame question

I have been on line about a welded wideline frame that an e-bay vendor has had for over 30 years.
There is no chassis number on it, just the letters like a double H on the front engine mounting lug.

Can anybody shed any light on this frame as it appears to have not been made by the Renolds tube factory, as frame is welded and not brazed?
See below;

https://login.live.com/login.srf?wa=wsi ... &cbcxt=mai

Your link took me to my Hotmail inbox.

It would have for me too, if I had clicked it.

If you knew your Norton or motorcycle history in the slightest, all widelines were welded.
Except for the race and inter frames.

That was the big revolution in frame making.
Except other makers had been welding frames, or bits of them, for decades.
As had aircraft tubular steel frames, which is where Reynolds had gained their experience.
How many thousands of MILES of tubing was it said they welded in WW2 airframes ?

Rohan, we've had this discussion before. In Australia we refer to brazing separately to welding. If the frame has been steel welded, it is certainly home made. It it was made by renolds, it will be 'bronze welded'. The way to tell a home made frame is by looking at the top bend which goes over the gearbox. The genuine item has changing radius. The guys who make the home made ones often cannot achieve this, and it will usually be a constant radius bend.

Sigh - another 'expert commentator ' ? here who doesn't even know that the vast bulk of Norton featherbeds were steel welded. ??

Even though we've had this discussion here, numerous times now.
How can we take seriously anything said when such wrongness keeps being repeated....

acotrel said:

The way to tell a home made frame is by looking at the top bend which goes over the gearbox. The genuine item has changing radius. The guys who make the home made ones often cannot achieve this, and it will usually be a constant radius bend.

Click to expand...

P.S. Nortons had over 20 different versions of featherbed, if you count them all up. ?
Don't know where you got this statement from, but since some of them are quite visibly different to others, hate to see it enshrined as gospel.
Let alone used to judge a frame.

The frame number mentioned may be more problematic though...

Don't take my word for it - Go to an historic meeting sometime, and have a look for yourself. If the bend just below the front of the seat is wrong ..... ? Not many guys who build replica frames get it correct. They are still good frames, but I wouldn't be quick to buy a 'genuine ' manx if the frame was like that. I'd have a really close look at the frame numbers , and the quality of the brazing.

Produce a pic showing this curve.
Featherbeds come in so many varieties.

acotrel said:

and the quality of the brazing.

Click to expand...

If the frame is hi-tensile and is brazed, then run a mile !!

Again again again.
Hi-tensile frames are not brazed, they are bronze welded.
Braze is brass - cheap brittle stuff, unless its to hold tubes into LUGGED frames.
Unless they are migged or tigged, as more modern tubing can be.

If you know your metals, bronze is as strong as (mild) steel.
Con-rods can be made in it (for low stress engines, it must be said).
Back in the Bronze Age, swords were made in it.
So this has been known for a long time...

Acotrel, you are talking about the Manx and early bolt-up Wideline frames that had a different frame radius by the oil tank. The later Wideline and Slimline frames were a tighter bend. I used to have a picture of the 3 differences but I can't find it to add here. So it doesn't mean they aren't original Norton Featherbed frames if they have the tighter curve, just not Manx. I haven't stripped the paint of my Manx to see how that has been constructed, but all the other Featherbed frames I have are welded.

Rohan, just briefly - what are your definitions of 'brazed' and 'bronze welded' ? I get the impression you call 'brazed' the situation where a forging is sweated onto a tube with bronze or brass. A friend any myself have made a few frames which we gas welded with nickel bronze filler rod, with in-line flux. In Australia, we call that 'brazing'. It doesn't really matter what you call it, it is still garbage . A TIG welded / jig stress relieved item has to be better. Anything bronze welded which is flexed in service will usually crack. That is why we never use it on exhaust pipes or footrests and brake levers.

A lot of pilots in WW2 may disagree with you.
But what do they know....

Welding has moved on since then though.
Reassuring to see you mention nickel-bronze, rather than tobin bronze ( =brass ) as you earlier mentioned.

P.S. So are you including your Seeley in this 'garbage' tag then ??

Rohan said:

Produce a pic showing this curve.
Featherbeds come in so many varieties.

acotrel said:

and the quality of the brazing.

Click to expand...

If the frame is hi-tensile and is brazed, then run a mile !!

Again again again.
Hi-tensile frames are not brazed, they are bronze welded.
Braze is brass - cheap brittle stuff, unless its to hold tubes into LUGGED frames.
Unless they are migged or tigged, as more modern tubing can be.

If you know your metals, bronze is as strong as (mild) steel.
Con-rods can be made in it (for low stress engines, it must be said).
Back in the Bronze Age, swords were made in it.
So this has been known for a long time...

Click to expand...

re ” If you know your metals, bronze”
I should have stated SIF bronze welded.

According to the owner it was welded. No yellow filling anywhere.

Postscript there is NO chassis number either, so cannot be identified by that method :!:

Wouldn't the fact that it has no factory serial number stamping, lead you to believe it is NOT a Norton (factory) built frame?

acotrel said:

Rohan, just briefly - what are your definitions of 'brazed' and 'bronze welded' ? I get the impression you call 'brazed' the situation where a forging is sweated onto a tube with bronze or brass. A friend any myself have made a few frames which we gas welded with nickel bronze filler rod, with in-line flux. In Australia, we call that 'brazing'. It doesn't really matter what you call it, it is still garbage . A TIG welded / jig stress relieved item has to be better. Anything bronze welded which is flexed in service will usually crack. That is why we never use it on exhaust pipes or footrests and brake levers.

Click to expand...

re "Anything bronze welded which is flexed in service will usually crack."

Not if you stress relieve the joint/tube after wards.
Hence the reason why professional frame makers do this.

If the frame is build right it will not flex, but if you are racing a Manx all season you should stress relieve the frame joints every season to prevent cracking because they are made from 531 tubing, ask Renold tubes.

I swear, I have seen ALL of these exact same posts, by the exact same people just a short while ago...

I'd be amazed if any genuine manx frame was ever stress relieved by Renolds. - why do manx frames crack the loops where the pivot mounting plates end ? What temperature are bronze welded frames stress relieved at - lower than the bronze melting point ? I can understand steel welded joints needing stress relief, and it should be done with the frame in a jig. If you stress relieve a bronze welded frame, are you converting austenite and martensite ? MIG welded frames are disgusting. Do you believe the Italian made Commando frames were stress relieved ?

grandpaul said:

I swear, I have seen ALL of these exact same posts, by the exact same people just a short while ago...

Click to expand...

Yes, it seems that some folks don't read and learn anything.
Same old tosh, thrown up again and again.

Hello Forum

warm greetings to all the protaginists here.

I really do find these differences of opinion fascinating to follow. So much passion, so much conviction. Dont get too viscious though fellas, this is a fun place.

ACTROTEL WROTE "I get the impression you call 'brazed' the situation where a forging is sweated onto a tube with bronze or brass. A friend any myself have made a few frames which we gas welded with nickel bronze filler rod, with in-line flux. In Australia, we call that 'brazing'. [/color]"I

Hey ACTROTEL, I am an aussie too and would agree that both sides have made valid points. YOU MUST consider CAREFULly WHEN SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF ALL AUSTRALIA.

i done a trade in Aussie too and b.razing was something akin to silver soldering where the relativly low temp filler flowed by capillary attraction at less than red heat.Thats why this process was used for sweating lugs, the penetration of the joint.just around filler melting point. the rods used in brazing were relativly low melting point compared to fillers used in bronze welding.Too hot would easily bugger it up. silver solder has never flowed as well since they took the cadmium out in the late 70's. i would also call using phos copper brazing. sweating lugs on frames I would call brazing.

Using either coated or uncoated bronze filler rods, (and there are many different types), and using a technique similar to steel oxy welding, the parent metal taken to a low red and filler applied is what I call bronze welding. the parent metal is not melted. the filler does not flow readily and may need to be directed a bit like in oxy welding steel

I would call the frames you made bronze welded, definitly not brazed.


its all bullshit anyway, purely an academic argument over definitions. I just wished to point out that there are valid differences of opinion all over Aus and it takes a certain amount of front to speak for all Aussies in a definitive manner. Actorel, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK and I hope you are looking forward to our next prime minister.

dont worry ,be happy
B.Rad

hello All again.

forgot to mention the science. this forum really has it all, from cyrogenic tempering to stress relieving both involving the conversion of austenite to martensite. these types of argument strongly suggest that perhaps we should be contributing to "Nature". the subject of metallurgy and heat treatment is heavy going for some, totally uninteresting for most, and a few will find it interesting.

it is an exact science though and one not subject to liberal interpretation. you are right or wrong

Is it true that reynolds 531 was superseded a long time ago by chrome moly. You cant get 531 any more?. what were these legendary feather bed frames made of. mild steel, 531 or unobtanium. please help educate a commando man in feather bed frames 101.

wish you were here
B.Rad

B.Rad
Walk into any engineering shop in Melbourne and ask them to braze something for you. The message they usually get is bronze welding. Most have never heard of furnace brazing steel lugs onto tubes, because it is now 2013, NOT the 1930s. And we only ever made about two motorcycles in Australia in the olden days. Today you probably wouldn't find one factory using the technique to make push-bike frames. We don't even do that shit any more.
Another thing, I'm not interested in Rohan's ego, I lost mine many years ago when I fell of in a race in front of a huge crowd. If you ride motorcycles, ego will get you killed.