welded wideline frame question
- Thread starter Bernhard
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 13,186
B.Rad
I think the common grades of chrome moly tube are 3%nickel 1%chrome 2%molybdenum. 531 is simply a grade of chrome moly tube. I suspect if you check the history, most of the postwar racing bikes used materials which were developed during WW2. Piston alloys were Rolls Royce Hiduminium as used in Merlin engines. Tubes were probably as used in Spitfires. We have never commercially made decent alloy steel in Australia. I was involved in making gun barrels and rocket motors, and we did that by specially running a small arc furnace with selected scrap and ferro alloys. We tried to use Comsteel 4130 for gun barrels, it was too dirty. Other countries use vacuum degassing which gets rid of the sulphur and phosphorus inclusions. Our plants use old technology because of lack of local demand for anything decent. If you wanted to make a crank in Australia, the steel would be imported, and you would still have a problem avoiding the inclusions down the centre, if you used bar stock. We don't make decent racing pistons, we don't have the spin/cast forging technique or the casting aluminium alloys. Our local stuff is all structural extrusions.
The truth is that I prefer to forget this stuff, Australia has become de-industrialised, there is little motivated heavy engineering, and no jobs for my type of person.
I think the common grades of chrome moly tube are 3%nickel 1%chrome 2%molybdenum. 531 is simply a grade of chrome moly tube. I suspect if you check the history, most of the postwar racing bikes used materials which were developed during WW2. Piston alloys were Rolls Royce Hiduminium as used in Merlin engines. Tubes were probably as used in Spitfires. We have never commercially made decent alloy steel in Australia. I was involved in making gun barrels and rocket motors, and we did that by specially running a small arc furnace with selected scrap and ferro alloys. We tried to use Comsteel 4130 for gun barrels, it was too dirty. Other countries use vacuum degassing which gets rid of the sulphur and phosphorus inclusions. Our plants use old technology because of lack of local demand for anything decent. If you wanted to make a crank in Australia, the steel would be imported, and you would still have a problem avoiding the inclusions down the centre, if you used bar stock. We don't make decent racing pistons, we don't have the spin/cast forging technique or the casting aluminium alloys. Our local stuff is all structural extrusions.
The truth is that I prefer to forget this stuff, Australia has become de-industrialised, there is little motivated heavy engineering, and no jobs for my type of person.
grandpaul
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2008
- Messages
- 13,234
acotrel said:
A tragedy, mirrored in the U.S. due to the nature of "cheapest product sells most" and the almighty bottom line. Very sad state of affairs when more than half the former major industrial centers are drug-ridden ghost towns.
I think we have "progressed" just a bit too far...
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,773
grandpaul wrote; “I swear, I have seen ALL of these exact same posts, by the exact same people just a short while ago...”
Yes you did, and I never intended my question to stir up the same old hornet’s nest again
B.Rad wrote; “it is an exact science though and one not subject to liberal interpretation. you are right or wrong
Is it true that Reynolds 531 was superseded a long time ago by chrome moly. You cant get 531 any more?. what were these legendary feather bed frames made of. mild steel, 531 or unobtanium. please help educate a commando man in feather bed frames 101.”
In The period of the 1950s and 60s when feather bed frames were made, this was the method of joining frame tubes as devised by Rex McCandless and his brother Cromie. Do your own internet research on the Norton Featherbed frame if you want more information. It’s all there.
The bronze welding technique was developed by the Suffolk Iron Foundry (Or SIF) in the 1920s
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Suffolk_Iron_Foundry_(1920) & http://www.bing.com/search?q=sif+bronze ... &sp=-1&sk=
You can still get 531 tubing, but you have to order a vast quality of it to obtain it.
This is why you are more likely to get a new frame made from T45 tubing these days as the world has moved on.
For your information, I didn’t know that you were supposed to stress relieve a frame afetr a long race season, how many Norton owners did that, I only ever came across one who did. Any frame builder worth his or her salt who bronze weld at high temp. with a gas torch will stress re relieve after making any hot joint.
acotrel wrote; “I'd be amazed if any genuine manx frame was ever stress relieved by Renolds.” AND “Walk into any engineering shop in Melbourne and ask them to braze something for you. The message they usually get is bronze welding. Most have never heard of furnace brazing steel lugs onto tubes, because it is now 2013, NOT the 1930s. And we only ever made about two motorcycles in Australia in the olden days. Today you probably wouldn't find one factory using the technique to make push-bike frames. “
You say it all,
it seems quite obvious to me that some of you writing to this forum have never held a gas welding torch in their lives and wouldn’t have a clue how to light it let alone use it. Can we put this subject to bed now please :?: :shock:
Yes you did, and I never intended my question to stir up the same old hornet’s nest again
B.Rad wrote; “it is an exact science though and one not subject to liberal interpretation. you are right or wrong
Is it true that Reynolds 531 was superseded a long time ago by chrome moly. You cant get 531 any more?. what were these legendary feather bed frames made of. mild steel, 531 or unobtanium. please help educate a commando man in feather bed frames 101.”
In The period of the 1950s and 60s when feather bed frames were made, this was the method of joining frame tubes as devised by Rex McCandless and his brother Cromie. Do your own internet research on the Norton Featherbed frame if you want more information. It’s all there.
The bronze welding technique was developed by the Suffolk Iron Foundry (Or SIF) in the 1920s
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Suffolk_Iron_Foundry_(1920) & http://www.bing.com/search?q=sif+bronze ... &sp=-1&sk=
You can still get 531 tubing, but you have to order a vast quality of it to obtain it.
This is why you are more likely to get a new frame made from T45 tubing these days as the world has moved on.
For your information, I didn’t know that you were supposed to stress relieve a frame afetr a long race season, how many Norton owners did that, I only ever came across one who did. Any frame builder worth his or her salt who bronze weld at high temp. with a gas torch will stress re relieve after making any hot joint.
acotrel wrote; “I'd be amazed if any genuine manx frame was ever stress relieved by Renolds.” AND “Walk into any engineering shop in Melbourne and ask them to braze something for you. The message they usually get is bronze welding. Most have never heard of furnace brazing steel lugs onto tubes, because it is now 2013, NOT the 1930s. And we only ever made about two motorcycles in Australia in the olden days. Today you probably wouldn't find one factory using the technique to make push-bike frames. “
You say it all,
it seems quite obvious to me that some of you writing to this forum have never held a gas welding torch in their lives and wouldn’t have a clue how to light it let alone use it. Can we put this subject to bed now please :?: :shock:
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 13,186
This discussion is worth having. I have a two stroke in my shed with a replica Egli frame that a mate and I made. I've lost enthusiasm for the project although it is almost completely built. The spine is mild steel exhaust pipe because it is to difficult to buy large diameter chrome moly tube around here . We MIG welded the front tubes and head stock to the spine with a lot of gussetting, and bronze welded the rear end with nickel bronze/in line flux. My feeling is that the frame could possibly fail at the head stock where the MIG has been used. I just hope that if it happens , it happens slowly. I will be watching for cracks.
I would never discourage anyone from building a frame, however there is a lot to it. The more people who do this stuff the better. As far as de-industrialisation is concerned, I believe the way forward is t owards the top end of the market. Most people buy on price, however around here more people seem to look for quality products and services these days. We can never beat the Chinese on price, at their own game at the low end of the market. What worries me is that if you go to Stanley Market in Hong Kong, the quality of the clothing is superb, we only see the cheap stuff here . I think motor vehicles are different , and we still have a chance of becoming competitive, but it needs to be in the top end against the Germans, the Chinese middle class love high quality cars. Have a look at what the ex-pat Chinese drive in US cities. Around here it is BMWs, Mercedes, and Nissan Skyline GTs.
I would never discourage anyone from building a frame, however there is a lot to it. The more people who do this stuff the better. As far as de-industrialisation is concerned, I believe the way forward is t owards the top end of the market. Most people buy on price, however around here more people seem to look for quality products and services these days. We can never beat the Chinese on price, at their own game at the low end of the market. What worries me is that if you go to Stanley Market in Hong Kong, the quality of the clothing is superb, we only see the cheap stuff here . I think motor vehicles are different , and we still have a chance of becoming competitive, but it needs to be in the top end against the Germans, the Chinese middle class love high quality cars. Have a look at what the ex-pat Chinese drive in US cities. Around here it is BMWs, Mercedes, and Nissan Skyline GTs.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 13,186
For B.Rad, about Reynolds 531 tubing:
http://reynoldstechnology.biz/our_custo ... clists.php
http://reynoldstechnology.biz/our_custo ... clists.php
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
- Messages
- 287
SKILLS NEEDED TO KEEP OLD MOTORCYCLES GOING,
acotrel wrote; “I'd be amazed if any genuine manx frame was ever stress relieved by Renolds.” AND “Walk into any engineering shop in Melbourne and ask them to braze something for you. The message they usually get is bronze welding. Most have never heard of furnace brazing steel lugs onto tubes, because it is now 2013, NOT the 1930s. And we only ever made about two motorcycles in Australia in the olden days. Today you probably wouldn't find one factory using the technique to make push-bike frames. “
Mate, the point is not about furnace welding steel frames, it is about different types of welding. brazing still exists and is reguarly done in Aus. So is bronze welding. this is a fact. also it may be 2013 but does that mean all the so called old skills not in vogue should be lost. lead wiping, pouring white metal, scraping bearings, forging, all these "OLD" skills can still come in very handy . so please dont get toey over another valid opinion.
it would be the worse if these skills were lost. . this is typical of the modern approach where apprentices are taught only the skills what the employer wants. Some apprentices are still taught helical milling, multi start threading, cutter grinding, cam milling et cetera. but they almost are never called on to use them. Should these subjects be dropped as anachronistic and not practical. In other cases thread cutting is an elective subject. This is truly terrible.
Anyway keep on being you. I do enjoy being informed here, and always listen to anything . I sincerely thank you for the information you gave, that is in the spirit of this forum: GIVING AND SHARING IN A CIVILISED MANNER.
Bernhard wrote:
it seems quite obvious to me that some of you writing to this forum have never held a gas welding torch in their lives and wouldn’t have a clue how to light it let alone use it. Can we put this subject to bed now please :?:
Mate, if you make a half arsed slur of all contributors here, be brave enough to direct it specifically to whom it was intended. It seems there may be more to your message but you seem incapable of articulating it. It is very rude to make a general accusation against all contributors.this bitchiness is not needed here. As Acrotel says., this will destroy motorcycling
best regards to all
Bradley
acotrel wrote; “I'd be amazed if any genuine manx frame was ever stress relieved by Renolds.” AND “Walk into any engineering shop in Melbourne and ask them to braze something for you. The message they usually get is bronze welding. Most have never heard of furnace brazing steel lugs onto tubes, because it is now 2013, NOT the 1930s. And we only ever made about two motorcycles in Australia in the olden days. Today you probably wouldn't find one factory using the technique to make push-bike frames. “
Mate, the point is not about furnace welding steel frames, it is about different types of welding. brazing still exists and is reguarly done in Aus. So is bronze welding. this is a fact. also it may be 2013 but does that mean all the so called old skills not in vogue should be lost. lead wiping, pouring white metal, scraping bearings, forging, all these "OLD" skills can still come in very handy . so please dont get toey over another valid opinion.
it would be the worse if these skills were lost. . this is typical of the modern approach where apprentices are taught only the skills what the employer wants. Some apprentices are still taught helical milling, multi start threading, cutter grinding, cam milling et cetera. but they almost are never called on to use them. Should these subjects be dropped as anachronistic and not practical. In other cases thread cutting is an elective subject. This is truly terrible.
Anyway keep on being you. I do enjoy being informed here, and always listen to anything . I sincerely thank you for the information you gave, that is in the spirit of this forum: GIVING AND SHARING IN A CIVILISED MANNER.
Bernhard wrote:
it seems quite obvious to me that some of you writing to this forum have never held a gas welding torch in their lives and wouldn’t have a clue how to light it let alone use it. Can we put this subject to bed now please :?:
Mate, if you make a half arsed slur of all contributors here, be brave enough to direct it specifically to whom it was intended. It seems there may be more to your message but you seem incapable of articulating it. It is very rude to make a general accusation against all contributors.this bitchiness is not needed here. As Acrotel says., this will destroy motorcycling
best regards to all
Bradley
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 13,186
Bradley, all that stuff about brazing and bronze welding was due to silly nitpicking over common usage of terminology. Furnace brazing doesn't often get done in Australia - probably only when eutectic alloys are used on things such as aluminium radiators. I've certainly never seen the old style sweat the forged lug onto the bicycle tube in any of the factories I've visited. I cannot imagine anyone using it these days. Even the Chinese push bikes look as though they are gas or tig welded.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,773
I take exception to Bradley’s remark, as if you read my original post it was about what appears (or might have been) to be a one off frame made over 30 years ago, I was being very patient with other people, one who quite rightly, commented that “ hadn’t we covered this subject before?”
As my post was now hijacked by other people who went over, once again with the same comments of a thread that has been on this forum elsewhere beforehand.
I got a little tired of repeating my comments of the bronze welding process of the featherbed frame, by people who will not take the time to do their own research which are on this forum, and elsewhere, if you care to find the time to look. There is nothing wrong about learning about other people’s trades and skills, but see the last comment below;
Re; “if you make a half arsed slur of all contributors here” quote;
If you want to learn the theory of how things are made from text books; then be my guest and start your own thread on the question section, or use the search engine to find on places like You Tube e.t.c. on how it is done/made. But please don’t be rude and hijack a thread about a different question, when I have to go through a long process of reading other people’s comments of the same things once again that I already know, and had to be repeated.
There is only so much that you can learn from the written word, from textbooks, as there is nothing like rolling your sleeves up and doing the job yourself preferably guided by a skilled craftsman/woman who will show you all the tricks of the trade, but I realise for a lot of people that option will never happened because they don’t want to take that leap which I chose to make when I left school.
For those of you who want to learn more, look up on Google; School of bronze welding on both images and videos.
As my post was now hijacked by other people who went over, once again with the same comments of a thread that has been on this forum elsewhere beforehand.
I got a little tired of repeating my comments of the bronze welding process of the featherbed frame, by people who will not take the time to do their own research which are on this forum, and elsewhere, if you care to find the time to look. There is nothing wrong about learning about other people’s trades and skills, but see the last comment below;
Re; “if you make a half arsed slur of all contributors here” quote;
If you want to learn the theory of how things are made from text books; then be my guest and start your own thread on the question section, or use the search engine to find on places like You Tube e.t.c. on how it is done/made. But please don’t be rude and hijack a thread about a different question, when I have to go through a long process of reading other people’s comments of the same things once again that I already know, and had to be repeated.
There is only so much that you can learn from the written word, from textbooks, as there is nothing like rolling your sleeves up and doing the job yourself preferably guided by a skilled craftsman/woman who will show you all the tricks of the trade, but I realise for a lot of people that option will never happened because they don’t want to take that leap which I chose to make when I left school.
For those of you who want to learn more, look up on Google; School of bronze welding on both images and videos.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
- Messages
- 287
just got back from ANZAC dawn service. a very sobering experience that makes you reflect on life and its complexities. life is very short and petty disagreements should be sorted out.
Therefore I will adress my comments to Bernhard.
This forum is not the place for stupid petty arguments or intolerance by anyone. having read your last post I now have a better appreciation of your position. You have articulated your point very well. it is not my intention to cause grief to anyone here, it shows how mis interpretation can lead to silly disagreements. I will concede my language is not appropriate for this public forum.
bernhard, for causing you to take exception you have my unreserved apology.
I hope we all become a bit more tolerant of other peoples positions so we can remove any petty bitchiness from this forum. this is truly a unique place, just look at the co-operation among members when one is in difficulties. Lets all take a step back and contemplate the purpose of this forum. To help others and share knowledge
bernhard, I wish you well in the future and best wishes
Bradley
Therefore I will adress my comments to Bernhard.
This forum is not the place for stupid petty arguments or intolerance by anyone. having read your last post I now have a better appreciation of your position. You have articulated your point very well. it is not my intention to cause grief to anyone here, it shows how mis interpretation can lead to silly disagreements. I will concede my language is not appropriate for this public forum.
bernhard, for causing you to take exception you have my unreserved apology.
I hope we all become a bit more tolerant of other peoples positions so we can remove any petty bitchiness from this forum. this is truly a unique place, just look at the co-operation among members when one is in difficulties. Lets all take a step back and contemplate the purpose of this forum. To help others and share knowledge
bernhard, I wish you well in the future and best wishes
Bradley
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 13,186
I really value this forum, stuff from guys who have applied themseves,to and made bits. One thing that seems to go hand in hand with bikes is ego. I love Phil Read, he has loads of it, but can still do the business. when i first came to our town,I started a motorcycle club, the bitchiness from outside has been amazing, but you get used to it, a sad fact of life.
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8,215
In reply to Aco, its not about your ego, its about you hijacking/ posting info that 531 frames are BRAZED.
(And earlier you had said with brass.)
Anyone who takes this advice will have wrecked a good (and very expensive) manx frame by now. ?
So surely we are entitled to point this bad info out, in no uncertain terms ??
Not to mention that most featherbed frames are welded steel - again info that you disputed/denied.
Those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it...
(And earlier you had said with brass.)
Anyone who takes this advice will have wrecked a good (and very expensive) manx frame by now. ?
So surely we are entitled to point this bad info out, in no uncertain terms ??
Not to mention that most featherbed frames are welded steel - again info that you disputed/denied.
Those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it...
madass140
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2011
- Messages
- 2,126
when I was manufacturing replica Slimline frames I had a few genuine frames that I made my jig from, these were unmolested very original frames, there was evidence in some hard to get at places of welding slag still on the welds which was painted over with the original paint, so they were either stick welded or with flux encased
weding, I forget the name of the process although I did it as an apprentice but I dont think that process would be applicable to frame making,
weding, I forget the name of the process although I did it as an apprentice but I dont think that process would be applicable to frame making,
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 13,186
Rohan your nit-picking is bullshit. Furnace brazing hasn't been used for years. It is now common terminology to refer to bronze welding as 'brazing'. Anyone making a frame would always seek advice from a welding supplies agency. The options incude TIG, nickel bronze, tobin bronze and many others. If the head stock is strong material, often bronze is the only sensible option. If you think about it you will realise that it is impossible to make a featherbed frame using furnace brazing.
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8,215
You using the wrong terminology is ' nit picking' ???
Pleeese.
Anyone who followed your 'advice' could have seriously wrecked something by now.
Or concluded their genuine featherbed frame was not genuine.
Norton used furnace-brazed frames for how long - 50 years approx ??
Its obviously not inappropriate to mention it, still.
More than half the Nortons ever made were made like this.
I just had a look at my lightweight bicycle frame.
It uses a lugged frame construction.
And is of quite recent construction.
Alloy steel tubing and all.
Probably used a torch rather than a furnace though.
Get your facts and terminologies right, and no-one will rubbish your 'expertise'.
Pleeese.
Anyone who followed your 'advice' could have seriously wrecked something by now.
Or concluded their genuine featherbed frame was not genuine.
Norton used furnace-brazed frames for how long - 50 years approx ??
Its obviously not inappropriate to mention it, still.
More than half the Nortons ever made were made like this.
I just had a look at my lightweight bicycle frame.
It uses a lugged frame construction.
And is of quite recent construction.
Alloy steel tubing and all.
Probably used a torch rather than a furnace though.
Get your facts and terminologies right, and no-one will rubbish your 'expertise'.
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
- Messages
- 8,215
Can we remind you, again, that earlier in this thread you said this.
This too is wrong wrong wrong. Bad advice, again.....
Most featherbeds were indeed steel welded.
That was the frame revolution - doing away with the brazed lugged construction.
Although other makes had used it before Nortons, for some reason they don't get the credit.
acotrel said:
This too is wrong wrong wrong. Bad advice, again.....
Most featherbeds were indeed steel welded.
That was the frame revolution - doing away with the brazed lugged construction.
Although other makes had used it before Nortons, for some reason they don't get the credit.