Torque wins races

I know I've been rabbitting on a bit about trying to preserve and improve the torque characteristics of commando motors for racing, but something came to mind which might be relevant. Years ago there was a young Australian rider - Ken Blake. He was killed at the IOM in about 1982. When he started racing, he rode the 730cc Jesser Triumph (triton) and was s o successful he progressed to sponsored H1R, TZ350, TZ750. I'd watched him riding the Triumph, and he did things w ith it which I could never do. I once asked him about it and he said that Dean Jesser har done such a good job setting it up that you could do almost anything with it. What he did not say, is that Dean used to give the Triumph a nice big dose of nitromethane. Back then one of my mates was at the top in A grade. In a race at Mallala, the Jesser Triumph spread its guts all over the ground and crashed about four others including my mate with his beautiful manx Norton. My mate stormed up to Dean and said 'see what happens when you use that shit !'. - Well - it gave me a giggle.

acotrel said:

I know I've been rabbitting on a bit about trying to preserve and improve the torque characteristics of commando motors for racing, but something came to mind which might be relevant. Years ago there was a young Australian rider - Ken Blake. He was killed at the IOM in about 1982. When he started racing, he rode the 730cc Jesser Triumph (triton) and was s o successful he progressed to sponsored H1R, TZ350, TZ750. I'd watched him riding the Triumph, and he did things w ith it which I could never do. I once asked him about it and he said that Dean Jesser har done such a good job setting it up that you could do almost anything with it. What he did not say, is that Dean used to give the Triumph a nice big dose of nitromethane. Back then one of my mates was at the top in A grade. In a race at Mallala, the Jesser Triumph spread its guts all over the ground and crashed about four others including my mate with his beautiful manx Norton. My mate stormed up to Dean and said 'see what happens when you use that shit !'. - Well - it gave me a giggle.

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Well, I'm not sure that torque wins races, but low end torque won't lose you races like the lack of it can.

acotrel said:

I know I've been rabbitting on a bit about trying to preserve and improve the torque characteristics of commando motors for racing, but something came to mind which might be relevant. Years ago there was a young Australian rider - Ken Blake. He was killed at the IOM in about 1982. When he started racing, he rode the 730cc Jesser Triumph (triton) and was s o successful he progressed to sponsored H1R, TZ350, TZ750. I'd watched him riding the Triumph, and he did things w ith it which I could never do. I once asked him about it and he said that Dean Jesser har done such a good job setting it up that you could do almost anything with it. What he did not say, is that Dean used to give the Triumph a nice big dose of nitromethane. Back then one of my mates was at the top in A grade. In a race at Mallala, the Jesser Triumph spread its guts all over the ground and crashed about four others including my mate with his beautiful manx Norton. My mate stormed up to Dean and said 'see what happens when you use that shit !'. - Well - it gave me a giggle.

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Moral of this story..........
If you're out in front, you ain't gonna crash when the guy on the Triumph oils down the track.

Damn acotrel this is exactly what keeps me so restless on useless project Peel.
For the best fun I'll take her big torque in close quarters over hi horse power in the wide opens. Torque allows acceleration response and rear steering while horse power determines how fast that pull takes ya too. If the speed of a section of road-track only allows so much top speed then the torquer can take em no matter the hoss power they just can't use i've found. Torque ain't gonna take the land speed events but may give a run for the money in quarter mile sprints. i'd had to face it Nortons are allergic to hi rpm. I'd had some low down torquers and you have to be on guard to take off or throttle much in leaning any unless you want rear to get out of line too easy. Remember the scenes in Fastest indian, when Burt Munroe would try to ease off from standing starts but had to cut throttle d/t the instant fish tailing till some motion built up. That's what i crave some more of. Torque tests frame and tires and pilot more than just top out horse power.

They call that ' STRAIN ' Steve . Outside the movie is a bit make believe ( typical of director ) . Theres a book around from 75 odd , with verbateum details
of the guys approach ( obbsession ) .

Some say raceing is Cubic dollars . :lol:

Estabilishing , or ignoring , component service life / durability limits ( see aircraft T.B.O. and Time Expired requirements ) .

Larry Perkins regarded Automotive Enginnering as Finite Logical Mechanisms . And did quite well with them . Not to say there isnt room for a bit of Intuitive /
createive development .

Freddy Dixon was Probably the type that inspired the Munroe movie type cast ? Dixon spent unlimited time ensureing free opperation of all componets
in preferance to pouring in modifications . This ensures dependability ( within limits ) .

Id realised 1980 if half the roumours were true , for 100 Hp , the cheapest way out was half a BDA . And its not unrelated to Norton Race Development .

Accrotel , What are the 34 Carbs youve fitted ? Shes a 750 ?? What are your intake manifolds ??? please . olde Beane . :wink:

Movie shovie the low down torque hits are traction testing and I'm getting the impression ya'll don't know what to do with an excess of it from start to finish.

Matt, My carburettors are 34mm Mk2 Amals, and I use a TZ350 twist grip and cables, to avoid hang up and get quick action. I bought the manifolds from Mick Hemmings, they are aluminium with moulded rubbers. All I did was taper the ports in smoothly for about one inch, not quite down to where the port opens out towards the valve. When I bought the carbs, I ordered them with alcohol kits. The needles and needle jets were ridiculous. So I bought a bit of brass hex, and made the needle jets at 0.117 inch, which is what I used to use in my old Triumph (number drill). I found a pair of mikuni petrol needles (I think they are 6DP6), and lowered them until the motor coughed at about three quarters throttle in the twisty bits, then raised them one notch. The motor cleared and is excellent every where. I think the mains a 670 Amal. But I've never bothered to try to get them really right. I think it is still a bit rich, but that is all top end, and with alcohol it doesn't matter anyway. It has never coughed on any of the long straights, and the plugs are a bit black. It is much more important to get it right through the mid-range openings. Our local circuit has 50% tight stuff, and that is where the Seeley is really great. I just have to watch out that I don't over-cook it, but having ridden the short stroke Triumph for twelve years as a kid, that stuff is still secoind nature to me. Fortunately, I don't crash easily these days. I'm a bit wary of taking it to Broadford. The track is twisty and three dimensional with a lot of blind corners, and I have never raced there. The problem is that the Historic Motorcycle Racing Association of Victoria has finally got its head around my 'thunderbike' idea, and I feel I will have to go there and join in the fun if/when it happens. I really want to get on the grid with some later model air cooled Ducati twins and early Vincents, Nortons and Triumphs before I kick the bucket. I dislike racing against two strokes and four cylinder superbikes.

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/acotrel/thunderbikes/

Matt, my Commando motor is cheap and nasty, but in the Seeley it makes the best bike that I've ever ridden, and it has a lot of potential I believe the new 6 speed CR box will give it a real boost, and I'm just about to swap over the selector drum to turn it up the right way. I've got a few other small things to do to get the bike right to ride again. I will probably have it out in the next few weeks, and I will do the on-board camera thing, so you guys can see what it is really like. It is a very funny motorcycle, I love it. I hope it will inspire a lot of you to build something similar - the Seeley was extremely easy to construct, and get mobile. The only things which are critical in building it, are to get the centre of the clutch about 6mm lower than the line joining the rear sprocket centre and the pivot, and keep the motor forward and the gearbox, back. I suggest it would be really great if somebody in the US started copying the Mk2 and MK3 Seeley frames, I believe the ones from the UK are a bit too expensive. I would love to have another one, I've got a lot of the necessary motor and gearbox stuff towards building a second bike.

Matt, my commando engine is an 850.

Matt Spencer said:

Id realised 1980 if half the roumours were true , for 100 Hp , the cheapest way out was half a BDA . And its not unrelated to Norton Race Development .

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Its very surprising that no-one tried that.

For readers, the Ford BDA was a twin cam 1600cc 4 cylinder engine, used in all sorts of competition. Had over 200 bhp in rally tune, with a pair of twin choke Webers hanging off the side. Cut in half, would have made a neat 800cc twin with 100+ hp, like Matt says.
http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2007/9/20 ... 107bda.gif

If I've quoted anything wrong, please correct.
If anyone has done it, link to pics, please !!

P.S. BDA was built by Cosworth for Ford..
Which is the mysterious link that Matt is obliquely referring to - the Norton Cosworth racer project. Course, it was to be 500cc, so an 800cc half-a-BDA could have been a problem...

Car mills dont make ridable bike mills, both Norton/Cosworth Challenge & Aprilia Cube Moto G.P. - fractions of car F1 engines which looked good on paper, & on the dyno, but power characteristics for bike racing success they didn`t have.

The Cosworth Challenge didn't have any problems with the power characteristics - it was the designers penchant for those quill shaft thingies that made it impossible. ?

A plain old hacksaw job on the BDA would likely have made a good engine.
Although 800cc in a 750cc class may have been a bit of a problem....

I really want to get on the grid with some later model air cooled Ducati twins and early Vincents, Nortons and Triumphs before I kick the bucket. I dislike racing against two strokes and four cylinder superbikes.

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Ugh acetrel I think I can relate to your statement above but badest elite bikes are in my sights to test track qualifying times against as no race class to fit Peel outlaw. I can't out horse power the moderns but I dam well expect to out torque em with less mass per umphf response and handling. But as some experts here point out I'm delusional invalid pilot so can ya imagine what if a seasoned soul like you could do on 'er! May even be neck and neck in opens even w/o the blower and the ~30 lb of stuff to support it. Get your Seeley's front and read cameras set up for us please.

As a longtime WERA vintage racer (now retired), Commandos were never very successful in our series. Commandos would run in Vintage 3 and when they ran I would check their times (being a Commando owner), and though I was rooting for the one or two Commandos running, I would always have better times with my Yamaha TD-3 in Vintage 2. In Vintage 3 the Commandos had to run against Ducati 750 SSs, 750 Guzzis, Honda 750 Fours, Kawasaki H1s and all were usually slower than the guy who had a 74 (cut off year for Vinatge 3 2-strokes) TZ-250 that bumped up or entered the class directly. At about 200 lbs and 50-55 HP, a 150 lb. rider a TZ 250 is a real competitive bike in any vintage class. Then you had the occasional crazy guy who had found/built a TZ350 that entered the Vintage 3 class. At 60+ HP and about the same weight as a TZ250, this was a giant killer.

You have to consider the fact that a really hot Commando 750cc race motor might put out 70-75 reliable HP at most, and a really light Commando on the track will weigh in at at least 350 lbs. Tough to race against a Ducati 750SS that is lighter and stock put out 73HP and mildly worked on probably put out 80-85HP.

montelatici said:

Tough to race against a Ducati 750SS that is lighter and stock put out 73HP and mildly worked on probably put out 80-85HP.

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Not always entirely reliably though ?

I can recall at the Historic Races a Duc that coughed in front of us (spectators) and left a whole piston neatly sitting upright in the middle of the track, to the bemusement of all.
What was interesting that said Duc made it back to the pits, under power, sort of. Later examination revealed the whole lower front cylinder had also departed, allowing the piston to escape. Think the rod must also have left, as it hadn't beaten anything to death. Maybe a one off, and surprisingly little damage, but big ends have been noted as a Duc weakness...

Rohan said:

montelatici said:

Tough to race against a Ducati 750SS that is lighter and stock put out 73HP and mildly worked on probably put out 80-85HP.

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Not always entirely reliably though ?

I can recall at the Historic Races a Duc that coughed in front of us (spectators) and left a whole piston neatly sitting upright in the middle of the track, to the bemusement of all.
What was interesting that said Duc made it back to the pits, under power, sort of. Later examination revealed the whole lower front cylinder had also departed, allowing the piston to escape. Think the rod must also have left, as it hadn't beaten anything to death. Maybe a one off, and surprisingly little damage, but big ends have been noted as a Duc weakness...

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Well, that must be the reason for Ducati's terrible lack of success in racing. Oh wait.

We distinguishing between bevel drive and belt drive Ducs here ??!

The bike racing world remembers only too well when a 900SS couldn't even last the 6 hours of a 6 hour race, when out in front. The big end failed.....

http://www.the6hour.com.au/content/history1975.html

Name another endurance race a Duc from back then won ?

I have very little respect, nay good frear for any un-tamed Commando as confirmed by my own and a few others I didn't crash on only by not really going as fast as about any other bike i've been on including some Harley's that sat up higher than stock so could lean. If that was my only experience of em I too would not believe there's magic lurking in the ole rubber baby buggies. On ideal surface in clam air a good un-tammed Cdo can handle about like other moderns or solid mounted vintage but let minor surface undulations appear or mild wind gust and oh la la it can already be going pass point of no return from the hinging flopping fish state. I've drifted Trixie a tire width or so a number of times over last couple years in ideal surface and banking but knew better than to try that in any other places. Yet a fully tammed one can more than keep up with anything else that's got more power as don't have to slow up hardly for turns and don't have to wait to apex to fully power up tire short of loosing it. The 900 Monsters I've played with were hard to stay ahead of with only mud floatation air pressure. Peel broke 3rd gear cogs off doing it but the Ducies didn't dang it. There is magic in digital traction only right now torque provides. Oh sure hi rpm horse power engines can also spin up tire in low gears but then they run into the Big Bang issues of so many pulses to tire it can't hook up as well so counter productive to more get go. The torque magic lies in starting a brief spin to get a better angle or thrust when it hooks up next instant out of there. Fun as it looks spun tire "slides" are tire traction and time wasting. Its only after 45' degree leans that handling or power characteristics really matters, other wise just pure horse power and traction and streaming matter. Kieth Code created a demon when he told class no one has ever crashed by tossing a bike down too fast. There ain't a faster way to toss one down than by tripping it out with torque and so my sign off motto. Can't isolate chassis reaction, tire grip and engine torque response. Wonder what form of cycle and power plant and tire can get the most out of em all and not blow up either.

hobot said:

Wonder what form of cycle and power plant and tire can get the most out of em all and not blow up either.

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An electric one.
The killacycle electric dragbike makes 500HP. and 2000 ft.lbs. of Torque.

http://www.killacycle.com/about/


Say what you want......... electricity is the future of going fast!

We see that some of the electric race bikes have gone to watercooled (electric) motors.
Get too hot and switch off otherwise, apparently...