Swingarm questions

The PO put grease in the swingarm. It was nice and tight and wasn't screaming fix me like lots of other areas so I left it for years (4 or 5). Swing arm is still good and tight as are the isos that show appx .010" and have since I've had it. This is a Mk1. Trying to decide what to do and where to start on the swingarm since I know it really should have oil and not grease.
I understand lubing parts but I wrestle with the Commando swingarm for a number of reasons: 1) I grease my Triumph swingarm, 2) seems like grease in there is better than 140 wt leaked out, 3) I have read of owners doing different things to keep a supply of 140 wt coming but I don't see a commonly accepted fix for keeping 140 wt in there.
Again, my swingarm and isos are nice and tight so I am reluctant to pull it apart for pulling apart's sake. I am searching for a repair/modify plan on my swingarm. Thanks for any thoughts on this. Jim

Most in past that put grease in did so via the oil zerk so didn't really get grease where needed d/t the tiny spindle holes stifling it. Even grease drys out so then rust starts then swells spindle and can wear lips that trap spindle no mater how twisted to free. I say remove it now while able and in the mood then decide to modify spindle for a real grease job or put back to factor drool system. Oil is meant to inject by a oil pump tool but few so equipped to go long way around to feed the thing enough to matter though the top "fixing" bolt, which don't fix spindle to matter much.

Thanks for the thoughts. What would I actually do to "modify spindle for a real grease job?" I can understand using a grease gun like tool to get the 140 wt in there but I can't imagine it staying in there so grease is my preference. Jim

Yellow_Cad said:

I grease my Triumph swingarm,

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So do I. But then, my Triumphs have phosphor bronze swinging arm bushes. Commando bushes are made of porous sintered bronze (Oilite*) which readily absorb oil and once re-oiled will remain basically 'self-lubricating' for a long period of time.

Yellow_Cad said:

2) seems like grease in there is better than 140 wt leaked out

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If you pour water onto a sponge it will eventually reach its saturation point where it will not hold any more water, if the pivot is filled then the excess oil will leak out as the bushes cannot absorb that amount of oil.

Yellow_Cad said:

3) I have read of owners doing different things to keep a supply of 140 wt coming but I don't see a commonly accepted fix for keeping 140 wt in there.

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Constantly drip feeding the pivot with oil is overkill, and in my opinion is simply fixing a problem that doesn't exist. The standard system works well enough as the bushes normally last for many thousands of miles (probably longer than the average Triumph S/A pivot!) so just re-oil according to the service schedule. If the assembly does develop play, then it's usually as a result of the spindle becoming loose in the cradle and not because of pivot wear.

*Oilite

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=3_4511

Oilite Bushes

Oilite has been acknowledged as the undisputed market leader in self-lubricating bearings for almost 60 years, and today sets the standard for other products with its quality and reliability.

Oilite Bronze Bushes: Made in a variety of styles from bronze, graphite and several other metallic powders formed to shape by the sintering process and then soaked in oil. These simple bush style bearings have an extended range of applications but are particularly suited to function in the the following conditions; extreme high / low temperature, high / low speed applications, corrosive environments, low maintenance applications etc.
Benefits: Inexpensive, noiseless operation, self lubrication, low maintenance costs

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I understand how Oilites work having used many old machine tools with drip oilers turned on when the machine would be operated. Both types of bushings work on the principal of having a film of lubricant between the moving piece and the bushing. Oilites use a supply of oil (and its ability to maintain a ready reserve) while other bronze bushings rely on a steady supply of grease for this film.

Oilites are superior and if my PO had not put grease in mine, I would be using 140 wt to this day. I guess what I'm really asking is whether or not at this point since there already is grease in it, if I should take it apart, clean the grease, reassemble, and oil from this point forward or should I just be sure to keep it well greased with a good grease gun and good quality grease. I realize that I would not be getting the benefit of the Oilite bushing used by the factory but if I can provide a protective film, as I would if the other type of bushing was used, then it would seem that I should be OK not to cause wear for the 3,000 to 5,000 miles per year I use the bike.

On the point regarding the stock swingarm being designed to disperse oil to the bearing and not grease, I can see that grease needs to be completely between the moving part and the bushing. If I can use a strong (battery operated) grease gun and accomplish this fine but then I know that this doesn't always solve the problem of getting the medium where it is desired for it to go. If I did need to take it all down in order to get it to successfully accept grease, then I could definitely see cleaning it all up and converting back to oil.

Yellow_Cad said:

On the point regarding the stock swingarm being designed to disperse oil to the bearing and not grease, I can see that grease needs to be completely between the moving part and the bushing. If I can use a strong (battery operated) grease gun and accomplish this fine but then I know that this doesn't always solve the problem of getting the medium where it is desired for it to go. If I did need to take it all down in order to get it to successfully accept grease, then I could definitely see cleaning it all up and converting back to oil.

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The old grease will be blocking the hollow spindle and it's unlikely that any significant amount will have found its way through to the bearing surfaces.

Personally, I wouldn't try to force even more grease :shock: into it. I suggest you remove the end caps and clean out the grease then start using oil.

" I guess what I'm really asking is whether or not at this point since there already is grease in it, if I should take it apart, clean the grease, reassemble, and oil from this point forward "

Yes - oil from that point on. There is no particular problem with the oil leaking. I put new bushings/orings in the swingarm a few years ago and 140 oil. It doesn't leak at all if the orings and the little washer on the long, skinny spindle screw are in good shape. One thing to be aware of - if you use a grease gun to inject the oil, if you are not careful, you can strip the threads off that long screw and blow the fittings off the end of the swing arm, making quite a mess. I don't have pictures but I have an excellent memory of this particular event!

Ugh, main thing right now to worry about is how long and dry grease wise it was run to mess up the spindle surface. Yes better clean it out while and if still can remove spindle w/o damage to you, it or cradle. If no mods done then stick with pumping oil in the zerk or dribble down center bolt. i put a great big tube resivoir on my Peel and then wish I hadn't. Even though Peel had special machined true cradle, new condition square swing arm and new thick grease smeared oil rings I could watch the level drop in 1/2" clear tube and spreading patches where ever Peel parked, not to mention extra grime on her behind.

For a greaser job the spindle holes should be opened up some as dry grease fibers can clog effective feeding of both bushes and the bushes sprial grooved enough to distribute grease and give some internal resivoir to keep the broonze pores oiled. Grease is just oil with fibers &/or wax mixed to thicken up and stick around. Even oil crusty grease tends to block moisture better than flowed away oil that can even float on top of water layer eventually.

You can put zerks though each side through bush to spindle but hard to aim and protect DS zerk with chain slack flap.

I don't see the lube in swing arm as really needed for lube as put many miles on trashed out dry worn away out of round spindles and they move freely compared to even mildest road suspension loads. Side wobble increased of course too. Its just for rust protection of the hardened spindle surface which can eat dozens of bronze bushes and only get more polished, if no corrosion weakening roughening.

Probly if theyd put threaded bungs in the ends of the spindle , there wouldnd be the excitement . The grease 'd go through between the bushes & spindle.
Pobably another ' mere oversight ' by the great british industrial metroplolis . Wonder how they ever won the war . :? perhaps they were exhausted afterwards .

Tecnically pumping grease through would flush the yuckey old grease out . If it were designed to go THROUGH . which its NOT . its designed to Blow the End Caops OFF .
Another astounding engineering feat ( dont worry Jap Chassis behavior was a bit suss too )

Big CLAMPS to secure the spindle at the cradle ends arnt a bad idea .

Meticulously cleaned ineer spindle ends and bungs JB welded in place might work . If you must pull it out , threading the ends would let you use screw in bungs .
The deriders would say the vibration would untread them . However , Loctite was invented before the Commando , as were self locking nuts , and Ice Cream .

Matt Spencer said:

Probly if theyd put threaded bungs in the ends of the spindle , there wouldnd be the excitement . The grease 'd go through between the bushes & spindle.
Pobably another ' mere oversight ' by the great british industrial metroplolis . Wonder how they ever won the war . :? perhaps they were exhausted afterwards .

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I'm not sure how anyone could even remotely consider it to be an oversight?

The system was purposely designed to be lubricated with OIL. :roll:

I think that this may be one of the most misunderstood bits of a Commando. And there are lots! The spindle doesn't need to stay full of oil. It just needs to have enough to keep the bushings wet. I know we all go to great lengths to get lots of oil in there but truthfully (and this is my opinion only) you only need to squirt a little bit in once and a while so the bushing can be wetted. I think this is why they went to the felt on the Mk3, it only needed enough oil in place to keep it oily, not a bath. The swingarm moves constantly but its not like it is rotating and creating a lot of heat.

I would either move to using the Mk3 style felt plugs (my Mk2 came from the factory with them), or I would install the roller bearing upgrade and use grease. Or I would squirt some oil in once and a while and not sweat it too much. At the recommendation of Comnoz I bought a tube of Jewell Amber Oil. I guess I will eventually be able to report on how it does the job.

(Disclaimer: I don't know jack about what Norton intended, and the above may be a fantasy I created to allow myself to sleep at night)

Russ

I believe the thinking goes like this.
"If God didn't intend it to have grease he wouldn't have given it a grease zert."

CNW does a pretty sweet swing arm mod. Spindle issue is dealt with, needle bearings installed, and cradled modified for easier trans removal.

"If God didn't intend it to have grease he wouldn't have given it a grease zert."

& if people were intended to be nudists , they wouldve been born without clothes . :?

Hope they wernt intentionally designed to break & blow apart too , one or two DID .

Matt Spencer said:

"If God didn't intend it to have grease he wouldn't have given it a grease zert."

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I don't know if God was to blame or not, but whoever it was, they eventually deleted the "grease zert" :roll: fitting and sealed the whole thing up on the late models so that devils couldn't fill the assembly with grease. :wink:

Re needle bearings for a swing arm...

OK, I'm no metallurgist or bearing expert but it seems to me that with the pressure on a swing-arm a needle bearing is not as good as a bushing in that application. THere is no full rotation in a swing arm, just a few degrees of movement. It would seem to me the needle bearings would just indent the spindle or flatten the needles (or both) over time because essentially, only a few of those needles are supporting the entire load. The bearing is not rotating so as to allow all the needles to rotate and take their turn at assuming the load; the same 3-4 needles are in the same place all the time.

With a bushing the wear is also concentrated, of course, but there is more "bearing" surface supporting the load and there is no danger to the spindle itself.

I realize that well-known, knowledgeable folks use needle bearings so they must know something about this that I don't. So what am I missing, how are needle bearings better for this?

L.A.B. said:

Matt Spencer said:

"If God didn't intend it to have grease he wouldn't have given it a grease zert."

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I don't know if God was to blame or not, but whoever it was, they eventually deleted the "grease zert" :roll: fitting and sealed the whole thing up on the late models so that devils couldn't fill the assembly with grease. :wink:

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Good one, Les! :lol:

I have an old galled, worn-out spindle in the junk parts box that was produced by the DPO(s) filling the spindle cavity with grease not oil. I can put a photo up if anyone is interested.

mike996 said:

Re needle bearings for a swing arm...

OK, I'm no metallurgist or bearing expert but it seems to me that with the pressure on a swing-arm a needle bearing is not as good as a bushing in that application. THere is no full rotation in a swing arm, just a few degrees of movement.
I realize that well-known, knowledgeable folks use needle bearings so they must know something about this that I don't. So what am I missing, how are needle bearings better for this?

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I've heard that argument before, but lots of Japanese motorcycles have needle bearings on the swingarm pivot and I haven't heard of any issues with them. I'm pretty sure your Ducati 996 had needle bearings on the swingarm pivot also. Did it ever give any trouble?

I've been running a needle bearing conversion in my 750 for the last 10,000 miles. I haven't noticed any problems, but one of these days I should pull the spindle and put a little more grease in there. It will be interesting to see if there is any wear on the spindle. The person who told me about this conversion was Doug McCadam, one of the co-founders of Colorado Norton Works. I tend to trust his opinions. (Disclaimer: I don't know if CNW still does this on their bikes, or if they ever did for that matter. Would be interesting to hear Matt's opinion.)

Really though, a little oil squirted in occasionally seems to work just fine. That's what I'm doing on the 850. Once I realized it's not necessary to keep the cavity *full* all the time I haven't had any issues with oil leakage.

As debby says, a little preventive maintainence goes a long way.

I took my swing arm apart 2 years ago and it turn out to be a check up and oring change. This winter I did that again. A good amount of oil came out which told me that what ever seepage may occur would take a long long time to empty.

2 years age I put in 85-140 because getting straight 140 is not easy unless I get 5 gallons. I could repackage and sell to all you here as "Pisserroony's Miracle SwingArm Spindle Lube" but I would still be left with 4 gallons when I die. This year I put in the same for the same reason and for the fact that it does a good job.

At any rate, the 85-140 seems thicker to me than 80-90, at least in my mind, and it hasn't dripped out. I do see evidence of some seepage particularly on the center stand and a rare drip on the floor. I take it to redline too often so if it ain't dripping something I get concerned.

In 2 years I will do it again. It's a long winter here.

"I'm pretty sure your Ducati 996 had needle bearings on the swingarm pivot also. Did it ever give any trouble?"

No, it never was a problem as far as I know...then again, I never took it apart! I just wonder if needles/spindle will actually live as long as bushings/spindle. I can see that needles might be more tolerant of no lube than bushings so maybe that's the big advantage... less actual maint required for what is considered the normal use/warranty period. Or maybe not... It SEEMS to me - again, I'm just thinking about it, I don't actually KNOW - that a regularly lubricated bushing/spindle would outlive/maintain a tighter clearance than a needle/spindle. But an ignored needle/spindle would outlive an ignored bushing/spindle.