Strange Frame

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Strange Frame


Hows youre 18.28 In. :?: If its a bit short :shock: you could jack out under the steering head cautiously , kicking out the front end to the 28 Deg. , or 29 .
Straightening the Top tube simultaeneously . If ye were carefull about it .

Drop a line from the top rear iso , on the bottom rails a few tags ( up or down :? ) about 1 1/2 or 2 in. fwd , ensureing it doest foul anything , catch a lower Iso Bolt .
with the carryer let into the lower cradle . ensureing it doesnt foul anything . :P

NOW , considering TRIANGULATION - you can look at things in whole new ways . As regards load paths & distribution . therefore dynamic characteristics & ridgidity .

Strange Frame
thats a Vincent .
 
Step away from the frame and look elsewhere. Reproduction frames bare available in G.B.
I wish a good shop would start making them stateside!
Mike
 
Matt Spencer said:
Strange Frame


Hows youre 18.28 In. :?: If its a bit short :shock: you could jack out under the steering head cautiously ,..........

The reference to above dwg to 63degrees for the rake has been measured and my frame is 64+ degrees.. The relationship of front axle to frame it means that its approximately 10-15mm short in an unladen/static posistion.,!!!! That is OK in my book taking into account the flexing of parts due to weight/wear/shock loads/brakeing/ and vertical movement of axle..

Have also checked the relationship between spine c/l and front and rear mounting c/l's, i have (cold) manipulate frame mount point to within .05mm (naked eye) measurement .. The vertical axis of the head tube to the centre lines of front and rear mount points is 3mm "offline" (using string lines).. I reckon that will be closed enough for this old plodder... No land speed records will be attempted!!

So all in all, im happy with the frames characteristic and its minimal deviation from the drawings i have viewed..... And will be put to use without hesitation.....

Next learning curve is "battery box" .. I dont have one, not seen one for a 72, and there are no "lugs/hole" in the area of the frame so will need to research this.. Any pic's would be gratefully accepted if handy..

Thanks in advance......
 
Opps..... Gotta take a few steps backwards.... After i finished welding up holes and scars from PO's and ready to throw it in the corner for the next priority thing to carry on with. I thought that i would check what i had previously checked via a different method... And you guessed it,, the vertical axis of the head tube that was 3mm offline on a string line is now about 25 mm as you can plainly see in the photo below...... The dummy tube that i fitted to the head tube is clearly 20+mm "on the piss" as we call it down ear.. So been to hardware and bought 4 x 16mm dynabolts/loxens and i've got a lump of 25 mm plate and tomorow i will clamp base of frame to concrete floor, insert various smaller pipes into dummy head tube shaft to strengthen it and "Twist it straight", in the opposite direction to where you can see it pointing in the photo...

I bet the will make some of you vomit :D :D :D :D :D :D :D hahahaha (thats one of the reasons you see DO NOT ENTER sign on most workshops.. SFA to do with OHS)

Strange Frame
 
I found out about mine after powder coating. So it went on a little trip... If you were to make a jig that holds the frame by the isos. Then you could extend the piece through the head tube all the way to the base or floor where it should meet the centerline. I think this might give you a more accurate idea of how much you're out and how much your corrections are helping. Also, If i did it again I'd paint with enamel and skip the powdercoating. It builds up in too many spots and dings easily. Just a few thoughts.

Good luck.
Strange Frame
 
Thanks Snorton and thats exactly what i will do, eg use the Iso centrelines front and back (as per photo) and persuade the head tube toooooooo alighn (get straight, could never spell that)..
 
This is all looking spookily familiar with my frame issues. I did a similar vertical test setup as you, with a set of bearings in the headstock and a 25mm steel bar turned to a point indicating the datum of the steering head. With a straight edge positioned centred between both pairs of iso plates, my headstock "pointer" was about 9mm off centre, (when level with the front iso bolt) Speaking to Martin Russell, an ex BSA frame maker, he said that the frame has probably parallelogrammed to one side in an accident. This would make sense as I always struggled to get the front iso bolt through the LH frame lug. That frame is in the pending tray and I managed to find a brand new unused 1969 frame with all the correct stand fittings (how jammy was that?) Testing that frame by the same method it proved to be spot on with my pointer on the centreline. You will be unlikely to bend the headstock to line up the frame, and that is not where the error lies. It's the two cradle tubes that need bringing across. I haven't got round to doing this yet but you may try this. Obtain two lengths of 1/2" dia steel rod about 8" long and turn a point on one end of each. Pass one each, points to the middle , through the rear iso frame holes and using a 1/2" bore collar fix the rods square to the frame plates. If the points line up it's another satisfactory test. my guessing is that they won't but when you are pulling the frame to one side, it might give you an idea where to stop.
 
I really appreciate this input 'Gripper" and have read it carefully a cuppla times and i agree with you that "" and that is not where the error lies. It's the two cradle tubes that need bringing across."", ............ So if i could fix the head tube stationary and "de-parallelagram" by pulling, that would comply with your theory and i agree........

But, i figure , its "easier" for me to fix the cradle tube to the concrete floor with a sandwich plate and with "solid " length of pipe through the head tube move to correct alignment.... Same theory as you Gripper but a different approach.........

I have noted that several people here would not even contemplate my methods, but would rather just go and source another frame... My nature wont let me scrap this frame without "avin a go"........ I have spent ~40 years pushing and pulling steel into different required shape.. The frame is just 2 pieces of ~25mm pipe welded to a~55mm spine that is only just a bit thicker than your standard exhaust pipe, maybe 1.6 -2.0 mm...

If this is a failure then it can be a valuable reference for others...... If its a success then, Gripper you will know how to straighten your frame..

(incidently, im very determined to maintain the 3 matching numbers i was lucky enough to have scored)
 
olChris said:
I have noted that several people here would not even contemplate my methods, but would rather just go and source another frame... My nature wont let me scrap this frame without "avin a go"........ I have spent ~40 years pushing and pulling steel into different required shape.

YOu don't have much to lose in trying. What about body jacks or a car frame rack? If you could tie it down good shouldn't be that hard to move it. Tying to the concrete floor just doesn't sound like it will hold good enough...but maybe I'm wrong.
 
good job cleaning up the tabs. When I suggested getting another frame, it was based on the "widowmaker" comment.
 
I sent mine to a pro, that's why it's in the crate. I don't have the wrenching skillset or shop tools to have even considered doing that job, but I think you'll do fine. The old timer that straightened my frame said the steel has a memory and easily returns to shape if the impact wasn't too bad. Of course he had a frame table, hydraulics and a shit ton of experience. Obviously look for evidence the impact was transferred to other parts of the frame. My swingarm was beyond repair.
 
Here we go, bolted down ready to pull.......


Strange Frame



I pulled it this far.. Most of the angle visable is the "slack" taken up cos tube/bar is a bit loose in head tube... This was first pull and when reset with string lines i could see that it was about 5 mm or so out of line, better that the original 20+ mm.. So bolted back onto floor and gave a bit more , 2nd time lucky..



Strange Frame





So here we go, looks to only be a Mill or so if any so in it, im happy and was worth the effoft and are now confident that the front axle is "true" to rear Iso's and spine.. Now to fit rear swing arm and see how that lines up with the frame ...........


Strange Frame





I wonder how many just dont even check their frame dimensions and alignment.. Guess we will never know.. :D :D :D :D
 
10 / 10 for effort , anyway . :P

NOW , have you put a LEVEL on the FLOOR . :lol:

One thing to watch is you dont get thehead tube / bearing seats , out of round .

RIGHT : your coach bolts are to short ! :twisted:

Listen very carefully , I will say this only once . :)

The Cross Member at the rear of the main tube , is an intersection of several things , fairly immoveable , and a good base datum .

if you put a good 4 x 2 , or RHS across the floor , shim to dead flat loaded . ( spirit level ) and START from there - aligning to the zero degree datum .
Pay to have a fine centerline at NINETY Degrees , idelableish . Ends scoured to reestablish if walked on .

This way a plumb bob and centerlines etc can be utilised . One Metre RODS through the two main ISO bolt lug pairs , give good eyeball for accuracy .
( tiny wedges belted in if the fits loose hold accurate ) Remember , try and figure how itsbeen misaligned . tecnically you reverse order of collision .
also remissaligning PAST the reverse degree under load , untill it sits back past neutral point - then reverse force to ' Tap ' back to Spot On .

However its much better fun to get a smart 18 yr old ( :lol: :lol: ) to hold it down on the back lawn , whilst you assail it with a large rubber sledgehammer .
( if youve got a grid iron body suit handy :( )

The Idea of putting a big U gusset in under the top tube , is , if youve set it straight and held it straight , it aint going to missalign again .
Also you will double the torsional ridgidity twixt axles - meanin youll be able to run over a penny repeatedly at speed .
 
Matt, If you go back a page and look in the photo "just because" you will see a Laser Level and across where the bottom end of spine finishes (Datum Point) i have a level and long bar fixed to frame (more triangulation), And this is the method i used for leveling plus the use of 3 seperate string lines to check squareness and dimensions..... No measurement what so ever were taken from the existing concrete floor......

And i will only say this once also. String, levels, chain blocks/pulleys, line of sight and measuring tape are "primitive" tools i know. If used correctly they are more that suitable for the mission intended.. .. Cant lose the sight of the fact its a motorcycle frame not a lense for Hubble Telescope
 
olChris , just thought I 'd mention these since you'd said that your rear loop had been cut....these are available from Fred & Ella at Oldbritts........We sell these frame loop support brackets in sets, part number 38-200001, $19.00 a set, as of 12/11/13. Also you might also want to strengthen the side stand, also available form Oldbritts..........We have a limited supply of the factory side stand brackets, part number 38-200002, $23.00, as of 12/11/13. Seems like the right time in your build for these upgrades. Cj
 
olChris, you may already be aware but Murray at Cyclecraft in Welshpool has a frame jig and has straightened a few. Not as much fun as what you are doing/done. He may be able to help you with the missing rear frame loop.
 
Cheers Cj and Cosmo... The loop was "attached" to frame, but once i removed putty and paint i could see it hand been parted with a cutting disk/hacksaw and susequently refitted with a sleeve and and several 3mm "plug" welds. I unpicked them an refitted with heavier sleeve tubing, opened the plugs to 8mm, rewelded them, got the hoop parallel with base of frame and rewelded the hacksaw cuts, ground it flush to hide them (that's what boilermakers do) and in doing so have no real need to fit rear hoop reinforcement upgrades as you supply at OB"s, but thanks for the ti CJ.. (they do look a nice, practical upgrade to use where necessary)

Cosmo, you must also be from WA. I have never used Cyclecraft, only due to ignorance. Does he build/supply/do tyres, cos i will need in time to get Tyres, rims, spokes, fitted and all matched to frame and alighned.. (will be using Suzi GT750/ 4 leading shoe front brake)... Does he work outside of the box??????
 
Three days ago i didnt have a battery box, but i have now and many thanks to Cosmo for letting me use his as an example...




Strange Frame




Strange Frame
 
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