Steering Issues

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mitchp said:
Carbonfibre said:
The very obvious thing that doesnt seem to have been mentioned on this thread, is whether or not the frame is straight or not?

Yes, and that's the million dollar question..... My bike is 36 years old with an unknown history - chances are it's been thrown up the road at sometime in its' life. It isn't obviously bent but this is always a possibility. When I bought the bike, the handling was atrocious with pretty much everything misaligned, including the wheel offsets. I've gradually worked through and corrected everything obvious and to be honest, the pull to the left is now pretty mild but it's annoying me because I haven't been able to fix it completely. To put it in perspective, if I go "hands off" I have to lean my body about 6 inches to the right to run straight. If the weighting / brake swap doesn't work then I've run out of cheap & easy solutions and a full strip and frame check is all that remains. I'm not sure the problem is bad enough to justify the effort.........

Oh, by the way geo46er...... nice idea about taking the caliper off, but with UK traffic density and the hills around where I live there is just one small problem..... :shock:

Mitch


There is a guy in Kent who would be well worth talking to..............he has been straightening bike frames for many years, and really does know his stuff. I think he trades under "Maidstone Motoliner". If the bike is pulling to the left to that extent, then I would expect it to be something thats pretty badly out, and should be relatively easy for the motoliner guy to sort out.
 
Done all the obvious stuff like - front fork oil levels the same. Check that both the rear shocks are damping at the same rate. Draw a dead straight line, i.e. builders chalk line string and then roll the bike dead level over it and check that front and rear tyre centres follow exactly. Front and rear Iso's set equally i.e. .010". Then re-set the top head steady. Don't worry about a bent frame until all the above easy to do stuff is confirmed. Unless there is accident damage evident, at worst t may have a bent swing arm.

Mick
 
ML said:
Done all the obvious stuff like - front fork oil levels the same. Check that both the rear shocks are damping at the same rate. Draw a dead straight line, i.e. builders chalk line string and then roll the bike dead level over it and check that front and rear tyre centres follow exactly. Front and rear Iso's set equally i.e. .010". Then re-set the top head steady. Don't worry about a bent frame until all the above easy to do stuff is confirmed. Unless there is accident damage evident, at worst t may have a bent swing arm.

Mick

I second that.
 
Bonwit said:
I'm getting ready to install new tires and figured this would be a good time to address an issue I've had since I got the bike. My '74 850 wants to go left, that is (I assume) the front wants to steer right, causing the bike to lean left. The rear tire tread is worn to the limit with a fairly flat profile.
Thanks

You might want to replace the worn rear tire and see what that does for the handling before you do anything else. When the cross section becomes square all kinds of weird handling issues can come up. If you want, you can remove the rear fender and mount the bare rim and see how it lines up with the backbone. With all the cradle, swingarm, and hub offsets; in the end the rim should line up with the back bone. Even still, there are lots of bikes that come from the factory with offset wheels. Certain BMW's have over 1/4" offset without a problem.

There was a story that the caliper was moved to the front of the fork tubes to increase the polar moment of inertia of the forks, that this would dampen the low speed oscillations or headshake. This paper has been around forever, but it shows how the frequency of the oscillation is inversely related to the moment of inertia of the front frame (forks) around the steering axis. So it may really just move the frequency down. Who knows what they were thinking?

http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/vibmode.htm
 
To put it in perspective, if I go "hands off" I have to lean my body about 6 inches to the right to run straight.

That is what I had to do on my two unmodified Combats to run hands off, lean my mass to R some. The dozen or so Cdo's I've checked with factory laced rim were all ~3/8" L of spine/loop center. This plus the ~3/8" LH offset of the power unit would make sense it'd tend to drift/fall L rolling. The heavy cast iron drum is also on the LH side to bias some more in those.

There is scuttle butt about lightening the steering effort of 850 increased trail by mass of caliper ahead of the stem steering axis as Bob just mentioned on moment of inertia.

The iso gap wear and re-shimming to sit cockeyed in frame can be a factor as mentioned too. I don't think fork action or fluid balance has much if anything to do which way innately tends to drift as I've had a fork leg drained to rusted inside w/o noitice but for stiffer fork action rougher ride on surfaces. Also sticky stem bearing. Combined it did not change drift but boy howdy it'd magnify the slight road lumps into jerks opposite the way intended by pilot.

I've run with a bent swing arm that would not pass spindle again once removed and with lower shock mount flopping in the breeze, neither affected the basic drift but did make road undulations cause hinged handling onset at legal speeds & moderate gusts in mild turns to compensate for by easing off radius and lean.

On Trixie Combat that deer struck out from under me so cylinder struck apart L knee, so hard apparently it bent the spine under tube to L ~3/8" of spine center and to fit head stead required ~1/4 offset shimming, it still handed as fine as any 750 and drifted L hands off as prior undetected till hands off a while. This is why I'd suspect frame and power unit placement as low on list influence on drift or aim or anything else but assembly terror and some buzz through headsteady from side wind loading or harder leaning loads at mostly legal sane turning operation. Very soon I will be taking a sludge hammer to the small tube to bash it back a bit for less struggle/screaming to mount head steady, hopefully removing the buzz intervals Trix had after the deer strike rebuid, but not expecting any affect on innate drift or direction.

On my Peel I've centered rear rim to spine, 3/4 less weight RH disc rotor and removing as much mass off L and moving to it R to see if that reduces L drift and security to fling to max one side or the other. On the Cdo that do not drift L mildly I'd suspect some fault that is compensating opposite of normal.

One thing not mentioned that caused wobbles out the blue at 50-55 mph, so definitely not hands off or it increased, was slack in the main shaft sleeve bushes/clutch wobble that triplex and drive chain flop tugged on to shift rear to front tire relations, till tranny renewed. Set bike on frame tubes and tug on chains to see if it caused swing arm to front iso mount shifting in rhythm.

I've check wheels rolling in same line by inflating tires hard and rolling through wet cement then across dry to view tracks. So far could not detect anything off that way.

Maybe your solution will be a new one to us all.
 
Well, got rid of my high speed wobble, seem to have got rid of my low speed head shake. Just been for a ride, took my hands off the bars & it went straight without me leaning over! :D
 
I just had a chance to try out my new Roadrider rear tire. The old one had about 4000mi on it and though the cross section wasn't square, the radius it had could have been measured in feet. The new one could be measured in inches. It was a 400mi trip up the coast of Northern California and Southern Oregon. It's a road with lots of curves and the pavement is uneven as hell in some places. I ride it all the time and the last time had wobbles and weaves mainly when the front end got unweighted. My bike is straight, it's been on a frame table bare and assembled, there's a lot of bracing. And it all went right out the window with my old worn out tire.
So Bonwit, think about mounting a new rear tire and see.
 
Carbonfibre said:
There is a guy in Kent who would be well worth talking to..............he has been straightening bike frames for many years, and really does know his stuff. I think he trades under "Maidstone Motoliner". If the bike is pulling to the left to that extent, then I would expect it to be something thats pretty badly out, and should be relatively easy for the motoliner guy to sort out.


Last weekend I weighted the left 'bar to offset the weight of the brake. As with everything else I've tried or changed, it improved things slightly, but nowhere near as much as I'd hoped. I therefore doubt swapping the brake to the left fork will work either. There's nothing left that's obviously bent or out of line and I'm out of ideas, so I've just called Maidstone Motoliners (thanks for the info, carbonfibre) 'cos I think it's time to get the frame checked out.

Mitch
 
Mitch I really look forward to your efforts paying off as a deeper education and satisfaction the rest us of might look forward to too. I just got Trixie Combat assembled to head steady > by using 1/4 spacers there d/t the deer strike bending frame on me, so would not assemble otherwise. I rode her like this ~1000 miles w/o any more drift than my about perfect aligned Ms Peel '72, but did get buzz for intervals with wind or when sweeper leaning loaded mounts to bind, otherwise could not tell any effect. Will ping back soon to report how good or bad crooked Trixie tends to wunder or buzz.

I wear tires till cords show and only change when too thin to resist THE Grit and have switched rears d/t flats same day one mounted with 110 road tire the other 120 dual purpose tire, to only feel a bit extra sluggish response by heavier tire but same dang drift to left and same half hanging off R to run mostly straight hands off. Wind and road slope not a factor over the times I've specifically testing this. Bigger tire delayed the start of drift and response to my corrective leaning, but not the end result.
 
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