Shorai - dont do what I did

mike996 · Jul 29, 2014

FWIW -

The day before yesterday I arrived in San Miguel de Allende, where my Commando lives. The last time I had been here/ridden the bike was in early April so over four months of sitting. I did not have a charger connected during that period and the Shorai battery voltage was 13.72.
It spun the Alton starter/started the bike quicker than my wife's 2012 BMW!

lcrken · Jul 29, 2014

Another Shorai data point. After two days + on the Shorai charger, my totally discharged battery seems to have recovered again. It did take two days to go from the blinking lights that say it is over-discharged to the display that says it is charging, and then rapidly to the solid green that says it is charged. Seems to work fine now, spinning the Dyno Dave starter like a turbine.

That's three times now that it's recovered from a total discharge. It may have lost some of it's capacity, but if so, I can't tell. It seems to work fine and hold charge.

It would be nice to have a little circuit board that senses when the engine is not running, and opens a relay to the battery, maybe after a delay of a few minutes in case you really need the lights on for some other purpose when the engine is not running. I'd build one, but the need just isn't desperate enough yet to justify the effort.

Ken

comnoz · Jul 29, 2014

The saving grace with these batteries is the fact that you can not actually completely discharge them. There is circuitry within the battery that prevents it. It may appear dead but if the cells were actually completely discharged -it will not safely recover.

Leaving the key on will discharge it to the maximum safe discharge voltage and it will take several hours to bring it back to a point that it is safe to do a faster charge. The battery damage will be minimal and the biggest loss is likely to be the downtime -which could be a big deal if you happened to be at a motel when it happens. Jim

gtsun · Jul 29, 2014

Just in case you need new ones Jerry my friend & well respected Indian restoration guy Wilson Pluck of American Indian Specialists is here by us in Fullerton off Raymond, ( 1101 E, Ash unit H, Fullerton 92831 ) and is a Shorai distributor, might give you a better price. You should go see his shop, he's very friendly & smart with cool bikes. Shorai has a tech guy named Peter reachable at peter@shorai.org or (888) 477-4848 who might help too.. Wilson told me about another manufacture of Li batts called Earth X Motor Sports that have a built in switch that prevents them from being over charged or overly discharged so they will not go dead if you leave the key or lights on like you did, Wilson said he's Leary of what voltage they have the anti discharge switch set for but seems like a good idea to me. Find them at earthxmotorsports.com or (970) 301-6064. About the same $ as Shorai.. Call me & we can ride over & I'll introduce you to Willson, you'll love the place.. Glenn T. S.

gtsun · Jul 29, 2014

Hey Jim, just saw your post. I thought the Shorai might have a switch preventing total discharge but wasn't sure. I (think) the difference between it & the Earth X one from what I see is that the Earth X one shuts off before it gets to low to still start the bike, not just save the battery life so leaving the key or lights on won't kill your day, Wilson said they had trouble working out the bugs of the switch that turns it back on & I think he said it shuts off at like 10 volts or so a good healthy charge system is important. Cool batteries if the tech works & I'm sure Shorai will soon have a upgraded one that does this too if it works. Glenn T.S.

worntorn · Jul 29, 2014

It's gonna be considerably above a 10 volt shutoff. The Shorai and Ballistic have an automatic cutout at around 12.5 volts. Any further draw below this point results in battery voltage falling off a cliff, down to unusable levels, which hopefully protect the battery. Both companies warn not to ever allow battery voltage to fall below 12.8 or damage may result.

Glen

lcrken · Jul 29, 2014

Good to know about the automatic shutoff, Jim and Glen. I suppose that's what's saved the Shorai in my bike, and at the price they go for, I'm grateful for it.

Ken

mike996 · Jul 29, 2014

worntorn said:
It's gonna be considerably above a 10 volt shutoff. The Shorai and Ballistic have an automatic cutout at around 12.5 volts. Any further draw below this point results in battery voltage falling off a cliff, down to unusable levels, which hopefully protect the battery. Both companies warn not to ever allow battery voltage to fall below 12.8 or damage may result.

Glen

I don't understand the "automatic cutoff" to which you refer. When I left the ignition on overnight, my Shorai showed 3 volts at the terminals.

worntorn · Jul 29, 2014

Once voltage drops below 12.5 , it "falls off a cliff" if even a small draw is applied. With my Ballistic I have seen it drop to various numbers, anywhere from 2 to 5.5 volts, but always such a low voltage that the bike will not run.
So the internal switch is not a complete shutoff, but rather a shut down to a point where the battery will hopefully not hurt itself, although clearly they sometimes still do.

Glen

comnoz · Jul 29, 2014

worntorn said:
Once voltage drops below 12.5 , it "falls off a cliff" if even a small draw is applied. With my Ballistic I have seen it drop to various numbers, anywhere from 2 to 5.5 volts, but always such a low voltage that the bike will not run.
So the internal switch is not a complete shutoff, but rather a shut down to a point where the battery will hopefully not hurt itself, although clearly they sometimes still do.

Glen

It is not a shutoff as far as a voltmeter is concerned because the switch is a silicone switch. When it is off there will always be enough leakage to be read with a high impedance voltmeter.
The leakage is so low that it would not power anything and would take months to drain the balance of the voltage in the cells. Jim

worntorn · Jul 31, 2014

Jerry, did the batteries work OK when load tested?

Glen

Jerry Doe · Jul 31, 2014

Hi Glen,

I did not load test them. I doubt I will as its a pain. Now the batteries are charged again, they stay charged. I have the Shorai charger now too, so I am sorted either way. I ride on weekends so if they are flat this weekend i will look into that.

Cheers

pdl999 · Aug 1, 2014

It would be nice to have a little circuit board that senses when the engine is not running, and opens a relay to the battery, maybe after a delay of a few minutes in case you really need the lights on for some other purpose when the engine is not running. I'd build one, but the need just isn't desperate enough yet to justify the effort.

Ken
I use something along these lines on my RPS Trident. It has a wireless ignition switch and a Shorai LFX18. The ignition switch draws a few mA and will drain the Shorai after a couple of weeks unless it (and anything else) is disconnected. I also wanted to be sure that if I stupidly left the lights on, that I wouldn't drain the battery. The answer was to use a simple timer and relay to disconnect everything (ignition, lights, ignition switch) 3 minutes after the kill switch is used to turn off the engine. I found 3 minutes is about enough to sit at a level crossing or fill it up at a petrol station and restart the motor without having to fish the wireless switch out of my pocket.
If this is of interest, drop me a line and I'll scan my wiring sketches.

David

lcrken · Aug 1, 2014

Thanks, David. That is pretty much what I had in mind. I'll PM you about the circuits.

Ken

Snorton74 · Aug 9, 2014

My battery sat new and unused for longer than I'd like to admit. Does this mean it's charged and in maintenance mode? I figured it'd be dead...

Hobot · Aug 9, 2014

One the big sales features of Li chemistry is their rather slow discharge stored so give it a try and see. If no joy give the seller or maker a call.

Snorton74 · Aug 9, 2014

It's been sitting the better part of two years so if it works that will be really impressive. On a side note I find it interesting that a company who makes batteries can misspell battery twice on their chargers label??

Hobot · Aug 9, 2014

I've had lead batteries stay good over 2 yr so Li should easy be good to go though makes me nervous knowing the solid state physics that make out of normal zone conditions a fire hazard. I know I can feel the difference 8 lb off makes so can't get Li off my mind either and letting others test em out before me on weak charging Commando.

worntorn · Aug 9, 2014

If you aren't using e start, then just use an AGM or sealed lead acid battery with tiny A H rating. Weight and physical size aren't much different when doing an apples to apples actual amphour comparison.
Just divide the pbeq number of the Li battery by 3. The pbeq number is, generally in the battery model number somewhere like LFX18. So look at a 6 amphour AGM battery to compare to an LFX 18 for actual power storage. A six amphour AGM battery is pretty light and small, not unlike an LFX18 Shorai.

I was using a Ballastic 20 pbeq battery. When it died I replaced it with a 7 ah AGM battery, which is smaller than the Ballistic was and has a bit more capacity. In actual usage it seems to have quite a bit more power.
The perceived weight savings with the Li battery only happens if you believe the pbeq number rather than the actual AH number, which they do admit to in the fine print somewhere.

Glen

Fast Eddie · Aug 10, 2014

Snorton74 said:
My battery sat new and unused for longer than I'd like to admit. Does this mean it's charged and in maintenance mode? I figured it'd be dead...

Yes, it means you're good to go!

Shorai - dont do what I did

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