Shorai Batteries new disclaimer/requirement

The Shorai battery site now includes with each of it's battery descriptions the warning that the battery will only work with vehicles having a charging system that produces a minimum of 13.1 volts at IDLE!
Is there any such system available for the Commando?

Glen

I put a 450 watt system in my R90S, but at idle it goes to battery voltage 12.7, it's an alternator, but the magnetic field is electronically controlled, unlike the Norton with its permanent magnets.

I'd be interested to hear from others on this as I am (was) planning on using a Li/ion battery in my Mk3 project where I need a small footprint as I am fitting a Ham-can air cleaner and a '72 battery box where I want to fit 3 relays and a Centech AP1 fuse panel.

Bill.

The 18AH Shorai works great in my Commando, whether using the Lucas 180W alternator/Zeners or the Alton 150W alternator/Podtronics (as part of the Alton E-start installation). I was concerned initially and wondered about whether the charging voltage of these conventional systems would be adequate for the Shorai but it's been over a year now and no issues at all even though the Lucas alternator produced less than 13v at idle (with the headlight off). From my OWN experience, the Shorai is great BUT...I have never used it in temps below maybe 65F so my experience is limited to temps from say 65-90F. No idea re low temps.

FWIW, about a year ago I posted specific rpm/voltage info from my Commando. Here it is:


The LUCAS 3 phase alternator:
Charging (voltage at battery), headlight off:
Idle (900RPM) 12.6v
1500RPM 14.6
2000 RPM 15.0
3000 RPM 15.17

Headlight on, low beam:
Idle 11.6
1500 11.9
2000 12.71
3000 14.12

Headlight on, high beam
Idle 11.38
1500 11.7
2000 12.2
3000 13.35


The Alton Alternator (measured at battery):

Headlight off:

Idle 13.14
1500 13.76
2000 13.80
3000 13.90

Headlight on, low beam

Idle 12.88
1500 13.46
2000 13.10
3000 13.60

Headlight on, Hi Beam

Idle 12.10
1500 13.05
2000 12.50
3000 13.09

Note the drop in voltage at 2k compared to 3k with the Alton/Pod. I don't understand it but that's what it measured with the headlight on.

I would have to ask as to what will actually happen to the battery if the voltage drops during idle? I am a little suspicious about this as typically it is overcharging that creates stress and heat. Are these batteries really this fragile? I would think it would be nearly impossible in real world conditions to make sure the voltage of a charging system never dropped below that threshold.

FWIW this is from the Shorai web site : "-Shorai LFX™ batteries have the same charge requirements as AGM lead-acid batteries and all modern vehicle charging systems work with Shorai LFX™ batteries."

I am admittedly not an expert on new battery technologies. I just have questions...

Russ

I think their requirement for 13.1 volts at idle is due to the fact that their batteries operate in a higher voltage range than traditional lead acid batteries. This has pros and cons. It means that when all is well the lighting will be bright, a starter should crank with gusto. But there can be problems if the voltage is kept more in the range our systems run in. At 13 volts, the Li battery is only holding 30%of it's full storage capacity. Even at 100%, contrary to advertising hype and common belief, these batteries do not have much storage capacity.
Their LFX 18 is a common middle of the road sized battery. The 18 designation sounds like it is an 18 amphour battery. According to Shorai literature, divide the 18 designation by 3 to get actual amphours. This is the amount of storage when fully charged to 14.6 volts, something you will not likely see in a Norton charging system. At a more likely 13 volts resting, divide by three again. So at this voltage the Shorai LFX 18 battery is actually a 2 amphour battery. Suddenly the claim of small size big power seems inaccurate. How tiny is a 2 amphour lead acid battery? Would you ever consider installing such a low capacity battery on your bike?

Glen

Your logic sounds reasonable but it does not appear applicable in the real world based on my experience with the battery. The Shorai spins the alton starter VERY rapidly - the engine spins/starts noticeably quicker than my wife's 2012 BMW. Lights are bright, etc, etc. There is just no issue at all. The bike/battery sits unattended (no charger) for months and the starter/engine spins just as energetically after two months of sitting. Again, MY experience is that it's great and I'm very pleased I bought it. In every way for ME it works better than the lead/acid batteries did. BUT again - I have no low temp experience.

This just added - I should have mentioned that periodic batt voltage checks after sitting overnight showed 13.4+ whcih, according to Shorai's chart, is over 90% charged so again, I don't think a Norton charging system in reasonable condition will have any trouble. I have never seen it below 13, even after 2 months of sitting. But I'll be at the bike again in about two weeks for the first time since early Aug so I'll let you know what the voltage reads...

Mike, like you I was very happy with my Li battery at the one year mark, but much less so at 18 months when it crapped out. here is some real world load testing that is of interest-

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ySNbSZTgpl ... SNbSZTgplA

LOTS of info here... it bears repeating. http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934

My direct experience is I've had a 9AH Shorai on my bike since June of last year, so for about 18 months.
My bike has the original 120 W alternator.
I run normally with a 20W pilot lamp in the front and a more powerful than standard tail light lamp (can't remember wattage)
Pazon Sure Fire EI.
The bike is ridden all year round so sitting for maybe a couple of weeks most and I don't use a battery tender.
About 1,500 - 2,000 miles per year.

I've had no problems at all. Starts 1-3 kicks.

Both of those sites listed in previous posts have useful info and I had viewed them both before buying the Shorai. The cold starting video - at 28F - I immediately figured had no application to me. I have never in my life ridden a motorcycle in such temps and probably have never ridden in temps below 60F - at least for more than brief periods going over mountains, etc. So I didn't care at all about it's ability in cold weather. But certainly if that sort of riding IS in someone's repertoire, it may not be the battery for them.

I like the small size of the Shorai because in addition to having plenty of cranking power for the Alton starter, it also takes far less space and, on the Commando with the Alton, it leaves a ton of room in the battery box to mount the start button relay, etc for a really tidy installation. For that reason, I would buy another Shorai, even if it does fail after 18 months. Heck,I didn't get any longer time than that on a regular batt though, admittedly, the Shorai costs a lot more than a lead/acid batt so if both last the same time, the lead/acid is more cost effective.

I am not arguing against the fact that the battery may have some technical limitations that affect operation under some conditions or with certain bikes/systems. I'm only saying that SO FAR it has easily matched my expectations for the conditions in which I ride my Commando. However, if it suddenly leaves me stranded with no warning, you'll certainly here about it!

My main gripe about the Li battery manufacturers is the misleading size designation. Note that you refer to your battery as an 18 ah. I'm guessing it is actually an 18LFX, which has just 6 amphours of storage when fully charged to 14.6 volts. Rx7171 refers to his 9 AH Shoai, which I'm guessing is a 9 pb/eq model, actual full power storage is just 3 AH. So this pb/ eq number automatically gets confused with a lead acid AH, which I expect the Li manufacurers hoped for, it helps sell their goods.

My second gripe is the voltage requirement. Your system may provide it, but I doubt that many Norton charging systems do keep the battery voltage above 12.86 at all times. When I purchased my first Li motorcycle battery, thee was no mention of this high voltage requirement. At least Shorai is now making the voltage requirement clear on their websites.
A search of the web shows that there have been problems with this.

I am in the same boat as you space wise. My project bike has a rear cowl designed around the Ballistic 12 cell battery. To top it off the battery has to be mounted on its side. So it is either pop for another $170 Li battery or try to find a sealed type lead acid or AGM battery that will fit.

Glen

W/o special chargers there'd be no new laptop and phones using them for long. Makes good sense for racers to have a few on hand on special charger to switch out between events but long legal speed road use and far off campers may be in for a let down. There's not that many horrific cycle Li battery failures in the news so likely the recommendation for over 13V charger is to deny warranty replacement on most the returns with we "told ya so", so so sorry. There are a few bikes and cars and electronics lost to Li fires though, so adds some spice to the sense of how lucky do ya feel riding into unknowns.

I'm with you mike996, I have two bikes with LFX18 batteries and both have performed flawlessly. One has been in service for 14 months, the other for 9. Both have average old charging systems, single phase, 150W Alton on one and an aftermarket Lucas on the other.
I understand the concern about the charge voltage at idle being below the minimum allowed battery voltage but this has to be put into the context of the real world. Think of it this way: you start the bike and ride away. The battery is fully charged. You stop in traffic and idle, you have daytime lights on with EI so the draw is something like 8amps. The charge voltage is inadequate so the system voltage is determined by the battery i.e. it is discharging. The LFX18 is like a 6Ah battery in this condition, so it will easily maintain the system voltage above the critical 20% charge voltage of 12.866, until you ride away again and recharge the battery. So to say that the charging system must deliver more than 12.866 even at idle is a flawed theoretical interpretation. Of course you must not get home, turn off the engine and leave the lights on and drain the battery. If you make that mistake you are probably in trouble.
Absolutely the charge system must be able to drive current into the battery at more than 13.1V in order that it gets a chance to fully charge. If your old charging system is so poor that it can't do this then really you should do something about it anyway, irrespective of what battery type you're using.

Glen, I can tell you are very pissed about these batteries because have had a bad experience but I do think there is a learning curve with any new technology and we have to be sympathetic to that if we want/need the advantages it offers. I don't think its fair to condemn the manufacturers, Shorai are pretty clear in their descriptions of the capacity and behaviour of their batteries.

David

So to say that the charging system must deliver more than 12.866 even at idle is a flawed theoretical interpretation. Of course you m

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David, no interpretation was made, flawed or otherwise? The Shorai site simply states that their batteries require a charging system that produces a minimum of 13.1 volts at idle.
When I first posted, in another thread, my oberservationthat Li batteries need higher voltages than many of our old systems are designed to produce, you disagreed with me and inferred that I did not understand the technology, but being an electrical engineer you did. Clearly from your early posts you did not understand the voltage band for your battery. Until my battery packed it in and I dug for some hard numbers, I did not understand this either. Now I can see exactly why it failed, my system(new Alton& Podtronics) does not keep the voltage high enough for a Li battery.
Ballistic did not make this voltage requirement clear, they were simply selling the batteries for any 12 volt system.

Swooshdave posted contact info for the Rep at Deltran batteries and I have been discussing this problem with him. He agrees with me that this voltage requirement means that Li batteries are not suitable for most of these small output older charging systems and has sent a memo to his sales staff on this. No accusations of "flawed theoretical interpretation" were made, on the contrary he was glad to get the info.No one needs unhappy customers and extra warranty claims. They were simply unaware of the existence of these small charging systems that actually discharge at idle.


Problems have shown up and now Shorai at least, clearly states that minimum 13.1 volt at idle requirement on their site. Good on them for doing that.
They do need to be more upfront about true amphour storage capacity. It seems to be universal that purchasers of Li batteries are certain that the giant pb/eq designation of their tiny new Li battery is amphours, and do not want to believe that true amphours are actually 1/3 of that number. This information is on the Shorai site, but you have to look for it. Most purchasers and sales staff understandably make the mistake of using the PB/eq number and end up replacing a 12 ah lead acid battery with a Li batter with a 12 pb/eq Manufacurer's designation. This creates a problem because you are now attempting to do the job of a 12 ah battery with one that actually only holds 4 ah.

Is there any charging system for Nortons that will adequately charge the Li batteries? :?:

powerdoc said:

Is there any charging system for Nortons that will adequately charge the Li batteries? :?:

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A 3 phase system shhould get you close.

I feel this is all a bit misleading. If all any bike was to do was idle, they would ALL go dead. But this is just not the case. A good balanced system will get the batter to its' optimal state and a good battery, like Shorai, will hold it, even during extended time of traffic or the like.

If there is a weak link in the system (wiring issue or mismatched componants) it will surely fail at the battery whether it is at fault or not.

Is there any charging system for Nortons that will adequately charge the Li batteries?

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One other thing that I have realized in looking at all of this is we tend to look at the output of the charging system and the size /type of the battery much more than the load size. With our bikes being as old as they are and with all of the aftermarket items available combined with individual owner decisions on modifications, there are enough variables to create an endless roster of load numbers.
For example, you decide to use a Joe Hunt mag on your Norton and also a 1.5 watt LED Pilot light (PaulGoff sells them and they are amazingly bright) for daytime use. You have also fitted an LED tailight and you never ride a night. So the total electrical load is perhaps 4 watts. In this instance the charging system has virually no load and will be able to keep the voltage in the battery very near the regulator cutout voltage, which is around 13.8 volts with a Podtronics, for example.
Or you could have points coil ignition, (25 watts at idle) a 60 watt headlamp that you run for safety in daytime and standard incandescant bulbs fitted everywhere. Now the load is around 95- 100 watts and most of our systems will be struggling to keep the battery voltage in the 12- 12.5 range, which will be OK with lead acid, but no with LI.
Add in a heated vest (35 watts ) and things get marginal even for lead acid. So it is highly dependant on these load variables.

I feel this is all a bit misleading

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Pete, how can it be "misleading" to quote the manufacturer's own instructions?
I never intend to idle my bike for long, but sometimes it happens,sometimes at night with headlight on I have gotten stuck in traffic lineups. That is when averages don't matter, it is just "how much juice is in my battery and how long do I have to wait before I can get moving?"
A long wait beginning with a partially discharged LI battery that hasa pb/eq rating of 20, but actual AH of about six at 14.6 volts, but just 2 AH at 13 volts equals shutdown and call AAA, as I learned.

"Or you could have points coil ignition, (25 watts at idle) "

A bit of a hi-jack (or at least a side-jack)... Doesn't the points require less power then an electronic ignition? I was under the impression that since the points will produce a usuable spark at least down in the 9V range, that it needed less power than an e-system. IOW, I thought that if the charging system was limited, points would be a better choice than electronic. Not true?

Mike, points/ coil ignition on the Norton draws about 25 watts at idle and most modern EI systems draw less than 10 watts at idle.
Pazon Smartfire draws less than 7 watts at idle. One early EI system that did pull a lot of power was the Lucas Rita.
One advantage to points/coil is that it will continue to work at a lower voltage whereas some EI systems, such as the older Boyer, will not work below 11.5 volts. I believe the Pazon and others have improved on this quite a bit and will continue to work at a more reduced voltage. Boyer may have also made their system more voltage flexible by now, I seem to recall reading that.

Just had a look at the Pazon site and the Pazon Smartfire will still give spark all the way down to seven volts remaining. This deals nicely with the problem of electric starter usage/ voltage drop preventing spark. This is a problem with the early Boyer and possibly some other systems.

Glen

Interesting, I had always said that if my trispark ever fails I'd go back to points and never consider another E-ignition. But I didn't know that the points used more power. So I might have to rethink that potential plan...