Rowley's 400 and the Magic Tube , hijacked version .

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Ok question remains, why did a cut away-notched spray tube work, by richening or leaning and what made it do so, lower place to spill out or lower backside acting like spoiler on a car tail?


Funny flight Fhysics demo, neither pilot depending on prior mentioned forces except for the spun prop thrust.
Rowley's 400 and the Magic Tube , hijacked version .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... stunt.html
 
Relieved my mechanical depression while bonding with new Amals, ugh- after measuring their asymmetries - streamlined spray tubes with Biplanes various air foils in mind. I assume seasoned experts account for the bi directional Amal flows like symmetric wings do, sort of. 1 of a number of reasons I no longer view fork as direction changers only lean angle helpers. bliP blAP BLAM.

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comm ... ctionally/

Vintage film demo on size shape drag ratios
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE[/video]
 
Once errected a full size teepee a few years for pagan gatherings and fire offerings so got familiar with semi-Bernouli,stack effect playing with the top flaps so left upper wings not slice all across like 850s. A bit Am. Indian medicine trained to tell ya them native know their way in around and through smoke flow.


Rowley's 400 and the Magic Tube , hijacked version .
 
You should keep away from those red popsicles...

I'd like to know what is different about 850s and Amals and mutes than 750 with Amals and mutes...
Its not like any of this stuff hadn't been around before.

Someone with a dyno and air/fuel readout could probably tell us lots,
yank open the throttle wide at low rpm and see what it sez.

Lemans gives it big squirts of neat fuel, puffs out a cloud of black smoke and is GONE.
As does about every V8 in existence.
Cept the ones with SU's. Or that new fangled fi...
 
its routine to have to retune for exhaust changes so likely factor in 1st 850 let down. We all seem to agree 850 notched spray tube worked out but still up in air on what it did that was good, rich or lean and at what zone of powerband?

I vote it let more fuel in sooner on less pressure signal than 750s. Wonder if Upping CR might of avoided this notched tube saga? More CR ups sharpness of exhaust note. I can imagine the air turned blue by British flavored swearing over a cheap solution.
 
hobot said:
I can imagine the air turned blue by British flavored swearing over a cheap solution.
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The British were very fond of cheap solutions !?

The budget for the H*nda canteen these days is probably more than every brit factory total spend combined. (!?!).
 
What confuses me still is I can only find references on notched spray tubes to richen inital low rpm throttle response, yet You state/quote others that the 850 issue was over richness. Ludwig supports idea that a richening feature solved the over rich 850 zone while hobot does not.
Our flow concepts and logic do not agree. Someone still miss understanding.
 
needing said:
84ok said:
hobot said:
Review the remarks yourself, which I think you concur with and label as highjacking
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and this from the man who hijacks others' threads (needing air for one) with his endless back and forth bantering chit chat with rohan
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Oh 84ok. Since this one is already hijacked...
I disagree with your sentiment. I have found hobot's sometime verbose postings to often contain pearls of wisdom or links to answer an as yet unasked question and as such is a positive contributor to the 'Air' thread. Yes, like the rest of us, he may not be correct all the time but unlike rohan he does not use bellicosity to disguise ignorance. Perhaps live and let live or click the troll button - it really does work (me being a softie, let them out again but they don't seem to change each time so back under the bridge they go). :D
Ta.
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I was thinking of ludwig and rohan, ludwig made the huge deal about hijacking but apparently no problem him going on & on with rohan in your thread and others, splitting hairs over who quoted what, where, this, that or the other thing blah blah

i don't have hobot issues and what is more telling to me than anything else is a cool dude like comnoz doesn't either, or at least doesn't make any kind of a public spectacle about it

that's here & there tho, for me, the author or originator of a thread mainly decides what or how their thread is to flow, ideally by example, and in accordance with forum protocols that are usually self evident

you seem to prefer a very open topical type thread, that is typically looong winded and is not usually something i am drawn to,

but it's your thread to conduct as you like or what works for you, my options are whether to participate or not, or how much

i do find alot of your work and info very interesting, but hard to find/follow or get to the nitty gritty,

from what i've seen, access norton has shown a healthy, flexible and generous latitude as far as enforcing thread rules witch seems to be mostly membership participation self regulating
 
hobot said:
Relieved my mechanical depression while bonding with new Amals, ugh- after measuring their asymmetries - streamlined spray tubes with Biplanes various air foils in mind. I assume seasoned experts account for the bi directional Amal flows like symmetric wings do, sort of. 1 of a number of reasons I no longer view fork as direction changers only lean angle helpers. bliP blAP BLAM.

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comm ... ctionally/

Vintage film demo on size shape drag ratios
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq8jTQ8ANE[/video]
Click to expand...
Saw the video.
Thinking out loud here to enhance either spray nozzle type.
Shown seethrough for clarity.
Ta.
 
ludwig said:
But ' rich or lean ' is not the question here .
The question is : how can a stepped spraytube help to solve a problem that is clearly caused by an overrich mixture at WOT ?
Read Bob Rowley's messages in the other thread .
IMO , it can not do that by itself ( if it makes the mixture even richer ) but only in combination with other things , like drastically dropping the main jet size , leaner needle , etc ..

This is an interesting topic as far as I'm concerned. Especially when we are still talking about Amal carbs and not so much airplane wings.
If a notched spray tube richens the mix at super low test drive-bys enough to prevent the Norton from totally bogging, which I believe is the case, then it stands to reason that same style spray tube would cause a too rich mix at higher revs as well. And so I believe the smaller 230's will under these conditions, deliver as much fuel as the previously fitted 260's because of the stronger vacuum signal at the float bowl keeping the mix correct. Would also explain to me why my own MK3, now fitted with straight through pea-shooters and a K&N filter does best with a jet increase to only 240. Previous to this thread I never gave this much thought, but now I think that being equipped with it's original notched tubed Amals, my Norton's engine would be getting too rich a mix with 260's regardless of muffler type, and is in fact getting the same (correct) amount of fuel throughout the range as a machine equipped with 260 main jets but with a straight cut spray tube.
Further, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe there was questions about why 260's were OK for a while in the 850 with no apparent bog problem. Well it has been asked who in the world would actually routinely try to accelerate at WOT from such low revs? Nobody. So the 'problem' was only caused when the bikes had to pass such a ridicules sound test.
My final deduction: Engines equipped with Norton style notched spray tubes require smaller jets than identically set up engines with straight cut spray tubes regardless of intake or exhaust. (as long as intake and exhaust is also the same)
My last sentence may sound a bit snotty, as if I'm making believe I'm some sort of authority here. I don't mean it to, just using plane language that came into my plane head.
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I do not comprehend a rich state occurring by WOT, d/t that creating the least pressure drop in manifiold w/o much air flow it still going 40 in hi gear, so my logic is less fuel being draw up/in for sudden too lean state of bog -not over rich. I agree a notched tube could allow smaller jet like 240 to flow as much as 260 on flat top tube.
I may be wrong so set me straighter how 850 but not 750s behaves opposite rest of the world engines. Ever had to correct wrong test answers by point our error of egotistic college professor ugh.
 
hobot said:
I do not comprehend a rich state occurring by WOT, d/t that creating the least pressure drop in manifiold w/o much air flow it still going 40 in hi gear, so my logic is less fuel being draw up/in for sudden too lean state of bog -not over rich. I agree a notched tube could allow smaller jet like 240 to flow as much as 260 on flat top tube.
I may be wrong so set me straighter how 850 but not 750s behaves opposite rest of the world engines. Ever had to correct wrong test answers by point our error of egotistic college professor ugh.
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I'm not sure if you agree with me or not, sorry. But to try to clarify, I mean WOT as in when the carburetor slide is pulled all the way up regardless of the RPM or lack there of. And particularly at low revs, I'm thinking too lean, not too rich, but with a notched tube approaching just right.

Secondly, I'm thinking notched spray tubes in a 750's carburetor's would also necessitate smaller mains for the exact same reasons. As a matter of thought, Triumphs and BSAs would probably act the same way. That is; equipped with notched spray tube'd Amal carburetors, a given engine will need smaller main jets.

I really like brainstorming about carburation. I wish we were all out in my back yard playing music and drinking beer. :mrgreen:
 
And remember that the cut spray tube required the Norton-unique 4-ring needle to carburate cleanly.
 
Rohan said:
The early spits were carburetted, and in a dive the carburettors lost the plot (since gravity didn't hold the fuel down in the floatbowl), the carbs would flood out and the engine drown in fuel. The enemy exploited this = get into a jam and they dived, and the spits could not follow for long.

..
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It was negative G at the commencement of a dive that caused the cutting out. Read the bit in your link about the Spitfires rolling into a dive to avoid the problem.
 
Bob Z. said:
And remember that the cut spray tube required the Norton-unique 4-ring needle to carburate cleanly.
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And then there's that...

My '74 T 150 Trident with three 26mm Amal carbs also has a unique spray tube. Similar to the 2 stroke carbs except the slash is not as deep. It also has unique needles to go with it.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
It was negative G at the commencement of a dive that caused the cutting out. Read the bit in your link about the Spitfires rolling into a dive to avoid the problem.
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And then read the bit 2 words later that the engine would still cut out in a steep power dive a moment later. ?
 
Biscuit said:
I wish we were all out in my back yard playing music and drinking beer. :mrgreen:
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Thats the bit we are missing here to make it fun !?

Forgive me for saying this, but this discussion seems to be going around in circles.
With not quite 100% the story to move on to something else.
 
Who in the world would give essentially WOT at low rev in top gear< well that would be me for a number of reasons and occasions to point its about essential at times and pretty pleased with myself that my Combat has prefect flat rpm response over a far range of increasing pure troque w?o a spit sputter or stall but do have to be smooth or spins out> Worse lean creating condition of any piston engine is snap open in top gear while going barely fast enough to shift out of third> beyond me on the insistence of over richness in above state for long suffering bog>
 
After some early dicing with the Pure version, the Hijacked version has pulled into the lead and appears ready to lap the Pure version.....
 
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