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Rebuild Seeley 500 Daytona

Discussion in 'Triumph (Classic)' started by Chris, Jan 1, 2014.

  1. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I found with my triton, that when I moved the motor as far forward as possible the crankcase mounts touched the frame mounts. I'd moved the motor forward a good inch. The bike became much more positive, - lost it's vague feeling and it gave me much more confidence. The 500cc manx I rode was even better. I know some modern bikes have 50-50 weight distribution, I cannot see how that works. It is probably always a matter of 'suck it and see' however the changes to find the optimum are not cheap even on an old bike. I think the forward lean on the commando engine is a good thing.
     
  2. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi
    Another wet day here but managed a couple of hours sorting through boxes of parts.
    Its a roller :D I am well pleased.
    [​IMG]

    Chris
     
  3. wilkey113

    wilkey113

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Looks great Chris!
     
  4. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Is this going to be a road bike ? Or do you have a race class which requires the drum front brake, yet permits that frame to be used ? The bike is good, however if I built that in Australia it would not be eligible for the historic racing pre 62 class, and it would be uncompetitive in the post 62 class, also you wouldn't use that brake in the post 62 class.
     
  5. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Acrotel

    Yes we have a class.
    Group 2 ie Road based engine
    Period 2 up to 72
    Robinson because we have a ACU race for 500cc & you score half points if you have a disc. Also continental events often prefer drum brakes, ie Holland & Belgium.

    Chris
     
  6. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    V Good .

    the p.o.s. 500 I thrashed had the bellmouths adjacent the seat post , for induction length ( 30 mm Concentrics on reinforced rubber tube . 7 + .040 650 pistons etc )
    Match or better a saint with Bonnie Cams & 2-1 with Mega . Faster than those Ring Dings . :lol: :) had the hidious dangly balance tube exhaust ( l o n g ) and
    the cocktail shaker silencors . & three sets of footrests . :)
     
  7. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Matt

    My original engine was reputed to be very fast. Even getting in the top 10 of a National event when it shouldn't have. Its very good for a 500.
    Then my mate John gave me a set of 650 pistons with the skirts cut away that he used in his 500 :D :D About 560 I believe :D :D
    I found it a nice little bike to ride & I am looking forward to seeing how it goes in the Seeley chassis.

    Chris
     
  8. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    If you are changing the cams in that engine, you might consider using the E3134 on both inlet and exhaust. The race exhaust cam for the unit motor has a different number because it is the E3134 with the extension for the points. I've fitted that exhaust cam to a mate's 1963 Bonneville back then, and it was the fastest bike in one of our more infamous bikie gangs. Many people with unit 650cc Triumphs are not aware that the race exhaust is different to the usual one in unit Bonnevilles which are I believe the E3275 profile which was used in the Tiger 110. I would not enlarge the inlet ports on that motor - use higher gearing. They won't cop 8,000 RPM for a long time, better at 6,500 RPM.
     
  9. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Acrotel

    Standard Daytona cams (ex Dave Degens engine) My other engine had Axtell cams which were great. I also have Piper cams which are akin to large bricks.
    The biggest problem with Daytonas is finding hi compression pistons. Best available are still Triumph pistons of about
    9 to 1.

    I will eventually build my spare engine up again & will look at which way to go then. The best thing about the Daytona is its a nice engine to use.

    Chris
     
  10. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    My 500cc short stroker was based on a 650 so I used the 12 to one pistons which gave about 10 to one comp.ratio. I don't think it was ever enough. I looked at a 1973 T100 which had the proper timing side main bearing, however the project would have cost a bomb, and the close 5 or 6 speed box is essential in my opinion. I think one of those motors in a 250 Ducati frame would be good - they were about in the UK racing years ago. As far as cams are concerned the E3134 are safe - not valve droppers. The GP cams of the 40s were bad in that respect, E3134 came out with the racing kit for the pre-unit T100 along with the remote bowl carbs, rearset footrests, and the megaphone exhausts. I was recently offered a T100 with the full factory race kit on it however I couldn't be bothered playing with it, they are too fragile. It is a pity that Triumph never released what Percy Tait was racing, I think Turner must have stopped that silliness. The unit T100 racer was the best bike the old Triumph factory ever made.
     
  11. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Acrotel

    Nigel Hall smith runs a Ducati framed unit 500 Triumph there are a few about. We also have a few Enfield framed ones. However when I posted that I was building a Daytona it was mentioned "what has happened to all the 500 unit racers? They were the mainstay of club racing.
    Bit like the tiger cub racers only ever see a couple out with us.
    Chris
     
  12. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Re; “It is a pity that Triumph never released what Percy Tait was racing, I think Turner must have stopped that silliness.”

    Don’t quite understand this statement, Triumph, once they had the late Doug Helne in their employment, who refused to move from the midlands when Norton moved to the AMC factory at Plumstead, developed a racing unit 500 twin, and won outright at the Daytona 200 miler in the early 70s, Percy Tait was also entered and finished 2nd to the MV of Agostinni in the Belgium GP at Spa. Helne also developed the BSA/ Triumph 750 triples that were successfully raced and the famous Triumph Trident "Slippery Sam"which won a few production races.
    Prior to the above Triumph engine bikes in various guises were entered in the 6 day trials, and the Bonneville 650cc T120 was Edward Turner's last production design at Triumph, won the Production Isle of Man TT in 1967 and 1969, it also won the Thruxton 500 miler
     
  13. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Bernard/Acrotel

    Bernard you are right. Percy was a top development rider. The Rob North trident frame came about because he got Rob to build a frame for his twin cylinder race bike (paid for by Percy) This was the link to the race team.
    Trouble is Acrotel, Percy himself states that the works Daytona was a very hard bike to ride.
    I will see if I can find the write up.
    Rob Prior a teacher at my local school purchased with Mick Hemmings the original bikes & spares. He raced his with the CRMCC for many years. It had a pair of beautiful ribbed oil tanks in front of the engine down low. I remember seeing Mick with his bike at Beezumph many years ago. Lots of interesting parts on it.

    Chris
     
  14. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    My short stroke 500cc Triumph was a bastard to ride. it turned me into an instant dud. I eventually mastered it after it had almost killed me many times. A nasty piece of shit. My mate had racedit at Bathurst in the 50s,broke his arm and leg, then did not race for 20 years. I was happy when I sold it after 12 years of fighting with it. The Seeley 850 is a world apart from it - totally no anxiety.
     
  15. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi

    Few more bits sorted/found/actually put on the bike! :D
    Wheels have really fallen off at the moment. Its been wet for weeks & its stopping me pull the bike out of the garage & getting on with things. Started to play about with footpeg positions & control levers. Once I get them set & make up my brake lines & shark fin, I can see where the pipes can go. The only set of old un chromed pipes I have, have a larger exhaust flange stub than the engine! No silencers, no brackets for the Interspan or the oil filter ( so pleased to get it back from the frame man that I did not notice! Still fitted the carbs to look at the one fuel tap connection & found I have lots of room to alter the intake length :D :D :D So things are not all bad.
    Looking forward to my new seat arriving, although I have been saying that for some while.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    all the best Chris
     
  16. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Chris, fretter yee not over minor impediments like missing brackets... That's why jubilee clips and cable ties were invented!
    Are those pipes you mention from me? Sounds like they might be, Degens always put Bonnie exhaust stubs in the heads... that would explain the size difference you have. Although, it doesn't help you much does it?!
    Keep at it matey...
     
  17. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    Is it the rear fairing bracket you are talking about ? I'd make it come off the rear engine mount with two parallel strips and a piece of round which curves forward. I use a piece of tube with a hole drilled across each end so a threaded flanged bush can be held into each end with a medium sized 'R' clip, And I use the same on the front fairing mount. - Pull 3 clips, and the fairing is off.
    Your bike looks good.
     
  18. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi

    Eddie you are right the spare head has larger manifolds on it.
    Acrotel, I use the same method as you. On this frame Terry has put a couple of brackets on the lower frame tubes. He has also made a couple of clamp on brackets with tube extensions. They have a larger tube with the fairing mount ( one slides inside the other) so that you can adjust them & drill a hole & R clip them. I use the same method for the nose of the fairing.
    The brackets that are missing & should have been welded on the frame are for the Interspan & the oil filter head. I am making a Box for the interspan & mounting it between the rear engine plates angled up towards the seat. I have also made a bracket to hold the filter to the bottom timing side engine plate (hanger really) next I need to put some bends in the gear change rod to tuck it in.
    Put the old brake cables on tonight after measuring them up so that I can make some new ones later.
    Must keep doing something every night.

    Chris
     
  19. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    It looks like a very nice project, I would love to own it. Have you got a decent gearbox for it ? I didn't go down that path when I had the opportunity for want of a reasonably priced 6 speed CR gear cluster. I saw a 1970s T100 at the Bendigo swap meet years ago for about $3000. It would have been eligible for the pre-62 500cc historic class, however a long expensive road.
     
  20. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Acrotel

    5 speed quaife. I have a MK1 & a Mk2 both work when they want. Besides the exhaust, my only major job is to adapt the inner case, gearbox seal plate to hold a bearing. ie an out rigger bearing. I think it would help.

    Chris
     

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