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Rebuild Seeley 500 Daytona

Discussion in 'Triumph (Classic)' started by Chris, Jan 1, 2014.

  1. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    If you keep the engine sprocket big, the gearbox sprocket small and the rear sprocket larger, with a close box, you should not do much damage to the transmission with the 500cc motor. I use to find that with the 4 speed CR box, I would choose where I would lose a race. It you gear for the ends of the straights you lose too much around the twisty bits. For the best on a short circuit, I used to gear low and let it rev out at the ends of the straights. The motor had lots of top end and if it revved out on a big circuit with high gearing, it became very exciting. It would cop 10,500 RPM easily and not blow up.
    My friend rode it at Bathurst in the fifties and scared himself shitless at the end of Conrod Straight. Then got up to Skyline Corner, hit the Armco fence and broke his arm and his leg - didn't race again for 20 years. They are a really good thing, however you always need to be 110% with it at all times. I think you will love it.
     
  2. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Ayup Chris, I thought you had a 5 speed Quaife cluster from me when you bought the unit motor stuff?
     
  3. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Eddie

    Yep later box a Mark 2. Main difference seems to be the needle bearings in the high gear with an oilseal fitted on the end.
    The Mk1 with a Hayward belt drive was good, once I sorted out the problem :D Previous owner thought it had nipped up. I found out he had stripped the rubber of the chain adjuster & polished the adjuster, as is the suggested guide. When he came in from the race & parked the bike, the red hot belt welded itself to the adjuster. I think you need a bit of oil in the primary case for this idea to work. :D
    When I fitted the Bob Newby belt drive & clutch ( I don't like Triumph clutches ) I found the box wasn't as good. Changed to a different belt with a bit more play & it was sorted. Then I put a rod through the engine :shock:
    Problems came thick & fast with the gearboxes then. Finally traced to the machining of the replacement cases. But had a torrid season.
    Sorted out the bearing housing/install & all good again.
    Want to use the inner case seal plate to make an outrigger. I will see what is what when I get it running at Mallory.

    Acrotel

    Gearing will be on my list of items to play with this season. I have a conical rear wheel & a good selection of sprockets. You cant change the front sprocket/clutch ratio much with the units as there is not the room in the cases. However this year I will also have a few more gearbox sprockets to play with.

    All the best Chris
     
  4. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I rode my old Triton 500 after I'd sold it to a friend. It was on petrol with straight pipes, modern tyres and a 5 speed Triumph box. It was a different bike. If I'd had a decent gearbox in the early 70s my story would be much different. You could get around most tight corners at 60 MPH at 5000 RPM with the high first gear of a close 4 speed box, without dropping off the power band, especially if the exhaust system is radical. Getting the short stroke motor back on power was always dangerous - instant sideways.
    I really like your bike - I think it has got a lot of potential. Secretly I loved my old short stroker, it was a thrill a minute however if always caused me a lot of pre-meeting anxiety. My Seeley 850 never does that to me.
    I suggest you should try to get the weight well forward and low, you need all the positive feel you can get. I think the Percy Tait bike had the oil tank down in front of the motor.
     
  5. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Chris, you don't like Triumph clutches?!?
    I know Newby stuff is sexier, but I used Triumph clutches on my racers, even the 900 NRE Dresda. They work well. The reason for using then was simply that they have a very effective Cush drive in them.
    On most of my racers, I ran the Triumph Cush in the clutch and a Cush in the rear wheel. I used Grimeca rear hubs. Disco Volante sell them, but they're expensive new. I used to buy them from breakers as the army 350/500 Armstrongs had these Hubs. I'd buy the complete wheel for £10/20!
    Degens also discovered, through process of elimination, that lack of Cush caused / exaggerated rear wheel 'chatter'in fast sweepers.
    If you are running a Newby belt, and no Cush drive in the system (conical rear hub), you WILL have gearbox troubles Chris, especially with a 5 speed Quaife.
    I do not buy the hype that the Newby belt provides anywhere near the required amount of Cush.
    I would urge you to look for some way of getting a Cush in the rear wheel.
     
  6. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Eddie

    Triumph clutches? Yep don't like em. When I went to belt drive, I was chuffed to get away from those pip clutch nuts, the poxy bronze thrust washer at the back of the clutch & all my knackered clutch baskets & plates, pattern rubbers & my primary case oil leak.
    Best move I made. :D & I never mentioned the Degens mod of cutting a second keyway in the main shaft at 90*. Really enjoyed that day as my clutch came out of the case to visit my leg! I didn't notice cos my nuts were wedged in the tank as the bike threw me to the ground & ran over me. WHATS NOT TO LIKE :D :D :D They are good I just coulnt bring myself to buy a new one when the Newby was actually cheaper & I got rid of my oil leak. I also got £90 quid for the cases.
    I run a K4 Honda rear wheel on the big Commando for the cush drive. I do agree the belt gives no cush at all.
    The 750 came with hubs from Dick Hunt & the bike shattered the rear wheel allen heads holding the sprocket on. Mind you they were the wrong grade stainless. Second season & the threads were shagged. I had the hubs tapped to 10mm metric cos they were BSF :roll: I cant see the little one giving me problems but we will see. I have a Peckett cush drive Triumph rear for the 750 if it goes again. & a home brew Rickman one. Then again I like K4 hubs. Looked for Grimeca hubs for a long time & never got one!

    all the best Chris

    ps keep coming with the advice
     
  7. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    If you want cush, I think you will find the pre-1956 Triumph engine sprocket - spring type, cush drive off the pre-units will fit the crank spline, you will have to find a different nut for the end of the crank.
     
  8. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Would take a little bit of thinking, and machining, and possibly a little more thinking, to make that work with the Newby belt drive!
     
  9. marinatlas

    marinatlas

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Hi folks, apparently the Quaife needs a cush on the rear wheel according to your experiences, I have a Seeley on the bench on the finishing line , and I had afford me new Quaife, ( X-mas cannot paid the TTI!!), of course I had seen the Maney cush drive, but Kenny Cummins said it was an easy task to install, what's your thoughts??
    triumph-rear-wheel-commando-swap-t9655.html#p107261
     
  10. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    I've not used the Maney Cush, but it looks good, and its a Maney part, so probably will be good! I've used a similar P&M item on a triple, which seemed to work OK.
    If Kenny says good things about it, I would imagine its reasonably OK :wink: !
     
  11. marinatlas

    marinatlas

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Hi Eddie, thanks for your input, but I realize I had made a mistake , in fact the Maney cush drive was hard job to fit - as said by Homeslice, lot of machining.........my buddy Dan Parker ( I think Chris knows him!) said so, may be fit a Suzie rear wheel drum hub , but later on.....will try the bike before on the road, any way, I folow your threads with lot of interest !
     
  12. acotrel

    acotrel

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2012
    I think that to fit the early cush drive to a belt drive pulley you would have to make a hardened cam which bolted to the pulley. The pulley would have to be unsplined and the drive taken from the crank by the end cam.
     
  13. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    If you already have a Triumph disc rear wheel, then you might want to check out P&M motorcycles. They do a Cush drive mod for these which I think is a straightforward bolt on affair.
     
  14. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Marinatlas

    I thought Dans rear wheels were all Triumph hubs with the Pecket cush drive? These have to be worked on a bit to get in the Seeley swinging arm. On the 750 I am running without a cush but have had the hub tapped for M10 threads for the rear sprocket. The Suzuki rear disc wheel has a nice design & a good cush. Good luck with your Seeley. :D

    all the best

    Chris
     
  15. Holmeslice

    Holmeslice VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2009
    Let me clarify a bit - the Maney cush is not difficult to fit. What I said was fitting a Maney Cush with a Triumph Hub into a Commando swingarm was not a drop-in fit. With any bike, the gearbox countershaft sprocket must align with the rear sprocket, and with this Maney/Triumph setup, the spacing of the rear sprocket is quite a bit outboard (intentionally, by design), so getting it to align with the gearbox sprocket within the constraints of a relatively narrow Commando swingarm would mean some machining to the face of the hub to move the lot inboard, as well as some radical hub offset.

    I run a Maney cush with a Triumph rear hub on my Seeley 750, and it is the bee's knees.
     
    Chris likes this.
  16. marinatlas

    marinatlas

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Hi Kenny, my intention, is to fit it into my seeley MK2 swingie with the classic triumph disc hub , so must I change the off set of the rim, or just machine the hub ....??
    Hi Chris, thanks for your input , I had news from Dan and he's Ok with his bikes !
     
  17. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Hi Marinatlas

    I will be chasing Dan later this month to see what he is doing this season. His Minovation Seeley G50 is not being ridden by the lad that tried it at the Race of the year last season?? Don't know why?? I am going to try & get him out parading one of the Commandos. Really want to see the short stroke 920 :D Now that sounds facinating :D
    Chris
     
  18. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Come on Chris... We're overdue a progress report on the Seeley...
     
  19. Chris

    Chris VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Ha

    Only got back home Thursday! :D
    I have taken your advice & nicked the front end off my Triton. Grimeca 4 leading. (just as back up you understand)
    Got a TZ fairing to play with. Although I am looking to buy a narrow Seeley fairing from my mate in Scotland.
    I am doing the oil lines this weekend. Biggest problem is the pipes & silencers.
    Will post some photos Sunday.
    ps sent of for my eligibility today Photos minus pipes etc ect

    Chris
     

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