Race Commando handling secrets revealed

Oh come on Doug, don't back off now.
This is getting good. :wink:

Doug MacRae said:

I don't REALLY believe Seeleys are for sissiies..... I just like to needle my good friend Kenny whenever the opportunity presents itself.

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Listen up, Shrimper. I say SMACKDOWN. Road America. 4 weeks from now.

Be there, or shut the hell up.

I will be doing Mosport for sure and Mid-O is a slight possibility but I wouldn't bank on it for sure. That will be it.
We've had lots of smackdowns already!

For those of us not familiar with the "Becker Headsteady" can you elaborate on how it is fastened to the frame?

Thanks
Russ

No one is really familiar with the Herb's headsteady, he has only made a few. It is not attached to the frame; a round piece of teflon mates up against a round aluminum piece, keeping the top of the engine in line. You can see the teflon piece extruding out of the hole, it is machined in a T shape so it can't fall out. It did get a little sloppy at one point and I just added a shim to it.
Someone asked about the triple tree offset, centre to centre it is around 1 1/2"- 1 5/8" , something like that

Doug MacRae said:

No one is really familiar with the Herb's headsteady, he has only made a few. It is not attached to the frame; a round piece of teflon mates up against a round aluminum piece, keeping the top of the engine in line. You can see the teflon piece extruding out of the hole, it is machined in a T shape so it can't fall out. It did get a little sloppy at one point and I just added a shim to it.

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I think that is similar to the one that ludwig had.

Doug
Many thanks, a fantastic piece. Just re read an article in Realclassics about Herb. Nice but your details fill in the spaces nicely. The amount of work Herb put in on a standard frame was incredible. Beautifully made items with really thoughtfull designs. Quality. Love the on bike footage as well. Cant believe how cool you look at the end of the race!
Looking forward to hearing more.
A Seeley rider!
all the best Chris

swooshdave said:

Doug MacRae said:

No one is really familiar with the Herb's headsteady, he has only made a few. It is not attached to the frame; a round piece of teflon mates up against a round aluminum piece, keeping the top of the engine in line. You can see the teflon piece extruding out of the hole, it is machined in a T shape so it can't fall out. It did get a little sloppy at one point and I just added a shim to it.

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I think that is similar to the one that ludwig had.

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Ludwig's design still had a bolt thru the frame tube that kept everything aligned.

new-head-steadys-t4489.html?hilit=ludwig headsteady&start=15

As near as I can tell this one does not. If I am misrepresenting Ludwig's concept, maybe he will get on here and correct me!

Russ

rvich said:

swooshdave said:

Doug MacRae said:

No one is really familiar with the Herb's headsteady, he has only made a few. It is not attached to the frame; a round piece of teflon mates up against a round aluminum piece, keeping the top of the engine in line. You can see the teflon piece extruding out of the hole, it is machined in a T shape so it can't fall out. It did get a little sloppy at one point and I just added a shim to it.

Click to expand...

I think that is similar to the one that ludwig had.

Click to expand...

Ludwig's design still had a bolt thru the frame tube that kept everything aligned.

new-head-steadys-t4489.html?hilit=ludwig headsteady&start=15

As near as I can tell this one does not. If I am misrepresenting Ludwig's concept, maybe he will get on here and correct me!

Russ

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While it did have a thru bolt (which could take up clearance) it had a big hole to allow movement.

Re Ludwig's design...yes I agree.

Now if I knew what the clip on the side with the stainless wire leading aft was for I could probably die a happy man.

rvich said:

Re Ludwig's design...yes I agree.

Now if I knew what the clip on the side with the stainless wire leading aft was for I could probably die a happy man.

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Wouldn't we all?

Dave
69S

Fantastic post, I've said it before but man i love this forum...Cj

It would be nice to know, Ludwig had some very nice inovations on his bike. I always looked forward to reading his posts and really miss his knowledge. I think we all learned from his posts and pictures, Hope he stops by again some time. :cry:

rvich said:

Re Ludwig's design...yes I agree.

Now if I knew what the clip on the side with the stainless wire leading aft was for I could probably die a happy man.

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In some of the pictures I have seen of ludwigs setup this wire supports the rubber mounted carbs.

rvich said:

Re Ludwig's design...yes I agree.

Now if I knew what the clip on the side with the stainless wire leading aft was for I could probably die a happy man.

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carb support isn't it ?

I note the comment about the balance factor. My Seeley has a rigidly mounted motor but doesn't 'buzz', the crank is rebalanced to 72 %. When using the close gearbox and trying conscientiously to keep the revs below 7000rpm, it always reaches 7,500 rpm. Found the mods interesting, but it is all too difficult - the Seeley is a simple answer.

Acotrel you describe every characteristic i watch for in a Neutral silent handling cycle. To get over steer by power steering [with front still in some traction] requires a lessening of fork counter steering away from center [or front skips out or you hi side off it] so you may be entering phase 3 straight steering w/o knowing it. You and Bob Patton and me all mention having to lighten up on fork holding at these wilder committed corning zings to let bike do its thing naturally. Keep alert to that sense of what forks are doing w/o your help next time out. Right up to the rear loosing grip, more power on it helps lift bike or resist falling down, while the counter steering fork tends to make bike fall over into turn. This puts a counter twist in frame. When rear is powered to lose full grip but still thrusting the bike tends to fall down on more power. At this point if forks are thrown on purpose or let to self snack into straight steer, while still some front traction then the frame gets loaded in a bow bend shape, sort of like rear shoving front to slide sideways, rear is helping leaning-trip bike down but forks are uprighting-hi siding bike against it.

The mid 50's BF are shown to give best internal engine load leveling but not necessity the best vibration externally so very pleased you calm smoothness in low 70's BF. Makes me less pensive to try upper 70's BF in iso-linked Peel. When the going gets tough the only thing I have to concentrate on is the sense of rear adhesion vibration so any other vibes lowers my security to press over limits. Thank goodness for self steering front as no way could I keep up with it motions or fight against its snatching in the tighter chicane play.

Hobot, I only use a balance factor in the 70s because that's what we always used in the old 650cc Triumph twins, and it has been proven successful. In the commando 850, it is pretty horrible, - the bike rocks back and forward when the motor is idling. But when it is spinning, it is really great. I don't believe you can safely rev a big twin motor with a 58% balance factor. Strangely, just by tapping the hole in the standard crank and fitting a steel plug, the balance factor is almost perfect for racing. (use the strongest grade of Loctite, and use a punch on the end of the threads.)
One thing that I've noticed about my riding, is that even these days, when I first get onto the circuit, I hold onto the bars too tightly. After about 5 laps I relax and let it all just happen, then you can see how the bike is handling. If you consciously drive it, you won't see it's natural tendencies. It is always the same, if you consciously try to go fast, you usually end up going slower. I haven't raced at a two day meeting for many years . However what I used to find was that after about 5 hard races, I was usually up the front with the lead pack, relaxed and doing it easy, and that was on a very underpowered machine.

In the current issue of A.M.C.N. there is an analysis of Casey Stoner's approach to riding superfast sweepers, specifically - turn 3 at Phillip Is [now named for him].
V.Rossi is quoted - 'He gets on the throttle 30 metres before anyone else'.
KC reckons, 'There are many advantages to the way I do that corner & I gain a lot of time...it always gives me a great rush going through there...'
' There is a side wind at turn 3 that puts a lot of weight on the front tyre; it wants to push & wash out. Because you have to carry a lot of corner speed there, this feeling makes it very difficult not to have some fear in you. With the front constantly pushing, if you go down in turn 3 in 5th gear, it is going to be a very fast crash.
As I drop down into the corner, I close the throttle & as soon as I drop the front into the turn I get straight back on the throttle & step the back out.
That puts weight on the back tyre & stops the bike having issues, windy or not. I completely shut off in 5th gear to get the bike to turn, but once back on the gas it is not quite flat out. I use just enough throttle to crack out the rear - if you give it too much it will come around. It is a balancing act; just enough...without spinning it too much. If you spin too much then you are wasting tyres & time..
I went in there & shut off for the least amount of time...data showed...less than 3/10ths of a sec...then I was back on, almost full throttle through the turn.
...in there at 262km/h [~160 mph!] & the slowest speed was 258km/h & Iwas completely sideways. I had the front wheel 1/2 way across the curb on the inside because I got the corner exactly right. I think even the rear tyre was only just off the curb on the inside. That is as good as it gets.'

Great stuff - oversteering to counter the wind . . . . breaking traction like a dirt track miler with a throttle chop and then back in it as it steps out . . . . Casey's the best.