Faster cornering on race circuits.

I road raced often for about 12 years in the 1960s and 1970s. Then did a few between 2000 and 2018 with my Seeley Commando 850. Over the years, when I practiced, I always worked up into the corners while braking and tried getting on the gas earlier when accelerating out of corners.
Many years ago I rode at Phillip Island and had a drum brake which dragged as it was released. I found that if the brake was dragging I could not turn the bike, so I ran off two times. The first time, I started dodging small trees. The second time I went up a four foot bank on my back. When you brake, the front of the bike goes down, the steering head angle steepens and the bike becomes more stable and understeers more.
Often if you get into a corner too hot, you tend to gently apply some brake. When you do that, the bike tends to run wider, and there comes a point at which you must either accelerate to get the bike to turn, or run off the bitumen.
The change in steering head angle affects the trail.
With bike which has neutral steering, braking can cause the bike to be difficult to turn, and accelerating causes the bike to hold it's line.
If you increase the trail by reducing the offset on the fork yokes, you can move the steering spectrum.
As you brake the stability does not change, but as you accelerate the bike oversteers in the correct direction.
What it means is, you can fly into a corner without counter-steering, and the bike will turn a lot as you begin to accelerate.
With my bike, I can brake to about one third of the way into a corner, braking and changing down as I go, then get straight back onto the gas.
Most other bikes are usually out on the ripple strip at full lean.
One thing is important, I must always brake before a bend or a corner, then accelerate. If the back of the bike does not go down and the front up, the bike will not turn - it would run wide. The rear suspension setting is important.
The rake on my Seeley frame is 70 degrees, the yoke offset is 53mm, wheel size 18 inch, and the bike wheelbase is about 1540mm Rear springs are rated at 80 pounds.

WOW cornering without counter steering, and the bike standing up when entrance is stuffed up and you freak and hit the rear brake.
I would love to hear more about your no counter steer technique, maybe the rest of us have been doing it wrong the whole time HAHAHAHA

Somebody replied!

I'm sure there are a lot of old duffers who have never done a single lap on a race track, me being one but there will always be those who want to throw stones.

Good for you A man.
It matters little to me if you raced yesterday or a decade ago, you did it unlike the majority and in the heyday of the 1960's and 1970's when motorcycles evolved very quickly.

It was quiet for awhile, now he's back.

ashman said:

It was quiet for awhile, now he's back.

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Yep I'm glad he's back

Al your stories are great.. just a little oft repeated at times for some.

Its the way you splice ‘facts’ into your stories that are incorrect that vexes some.

As far as I’m aware (and I’m always happy to be proven wrong if it enhances my learning) it is not physically possible to accurately and quickly turn a speeding motorcycle without counter steering.

Whether its a lot or a little of counter steering that’s used… or whether is conscious or sub conscious… that’s all up for discussion. But the fact that it is required is not.

I am happy we have a race cornering thread where this topic can be safely discussed, without threat of crashing other threads.

Trail braking. Yep.



And that requires good suspension setup too.

What do you do when it turns out there's a car coming toward you, the other side of that hedge on the apex?

I think he misswrote. I suspect what he meant to say was not having to counter steer to stop over steer when leant over. My 900SS is a steady bike, but watch out if you roll off the power deep in a bend, especially a slow bend, you are heading for the kerb. My Seeley on the other hand is forgiving of all my ineptitude’s whilst leant over.

Mart UK said:

What do you do when it turns out there's a car coming toward you, the other side of that hedge on the apex?

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That usually means you have run VERY wide off the track into the parking lot.

Mart UK said:

What do you do when it turns out there's a car coming toward you, the other side of that hedge on the apex?

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Title of the thread is “Faster cornering on race circuits”.

There are no oncoming vehicles.

Marshalls flags tell you the corner is clear even beyond the point you can see.

So it’s a very different topic to fast, safe, road riding. On the track you enter bends at speeds where you have no chance of stopping or avoiding obstacles that might be out of your vision. It’s a completely different mindset.

Therefore, road riders who venture onto the track have to ‘unlearn’ a lot of habits that are essential to survival on the road. I imagine that’s why many ‘young guns’ come through, they don’t have any unlearning to do and approach the task at hand with a fully open mind.

I still find my entrance into corners is hampered by me looking round for the police! The result of going flat out & my road brain protecting my licence.

Chris said:

I still find my entrance into corners is hampered by me looking round for the police! The result of going flat out & my road brain protecting my licence.

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The first time I went on the track I was a badly behaved yoof on the verge of a ban on the road, and had therefore become properly paranoid.

I couldn’t get my head around it for a while… no speed limits? No police? No half blind and distracted motorists? No junctions, diesel spills, manhole covers, etc, etc.

Just the bike… the track… and my own limits.

I had no idea that riding around in circles could feel SO liberating !!

I always believed the fastest way around a corner was to brake as far into it as far as possible until you reach the centre point, then get back on the gas to power out, without rolling any distance in the middle of the corner. That wa until I reduced the offset on the fork yokes of my Seeley. I still used to brake up into the corners and get on the gas without rolling any distance. But as I got on the gas, I found the bike turned in the correct direction as the back went down. The bike also seems to stay more upright - less lean. If I follow other riders into a corner, on their line, I also end up at fell lean and tyre dependent. But if I brake onto the first third of the corner and gas the bike hard, it steer itself under the others, on a much tighter line. I found I could use that on every corner. The only thing is I have to have my head beyond the corner.

You could never ride like that on a public road. On a race track, the corners are rarely blind. So you can usually see where you are going to end up. I really surprised myself when I rode up the inside of those three big hondas. I you can do that, they have got a real problem. In two rides I was up with the leaders, but I'd got bad starts, and I was always at risk of hitting one of them. When I got the good start, I was behind the others at turn one, then between the two corners, my bike turned tight, and I simply rode up the inside of turn two , passing the leaders.
It is really strange - the steering seems to be a spectrum. As I increased the trail, turning into the corner became easir as I braked, and coming out under power became a real blinder. I am on the gas most of the way around most corners. It means as you reach the end of the corner, you are going much faster than the others. So you do not need as much horsepower in the straights.
Even a neutral steering bike does the same thing. As you practice, you must eventually get into a corner too hot and run wide. When that happens, the way out is to gently brake until you slow down a bit, then get back on the gas. The bike will usually stop it's progression toward the outside of the track. Then you simply ride out of the corner.

What I do is just as safe as joining the procession at full lean on the high line in corners, but it is faster.. The track is usually clear on the low line.
I suspect there must be a down-side to this handling, but I have not found it.

Fast Eddie said:

… no speed limits? No police? No half blind and distracted motorists? No junctions, diesel spills, manhole covers, etc, etc.
Just the bike… the track… and my own limits.

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Same here :

Fast Eddie said:

The first time I went on the track I was a badly behaved yoof on the verge of a ban on the road, and had therefore become properly paranoid.

I couldn’t get my head around it for a while… no speed limits? No police? No half blind and distracted motorists? No junctions, diesel spills, manhole covers, etc, etc.

Just the bike… the track… and my own limits.

I had no idea that riding around in circles could feel SO liberating !!

Click to expand...

When I was a kid, I used to ride hotted-up 650 Triumphs on public roads. I was always afraid of losing my licence, and I ended up having too many near-misses. So at age 29, I went road racing. I then proceeded to crash all over the landscape until I got better. Now racing is no problem for me, except I am getting older.
I hope what I have said on this topic helps other Commando racers to get better results. When I built my Seeley 850, I never believed in it, but I certainly do now. If you rely on throttle response in a straight line, , you are never going to get it. But accelerating hard all the way around corners except for the first little bit, is really good.

When you road race, you adjust to the bike. A good bike makes a good rider. But getting the bike to be good can be a major problem.. Stan Hailwood bought his son a 250 Mondial. My father was not wealthy. Talent does not make up for the difference. You need talent, but a bad bike can destroy you before you become experienced. For me - these days it does not matter what my bike does, I know I can cope with it.

I just got my 1974 Norton Commando 850 from my uncle and it's been my daily driver for about 8 weeks now. I am concerned about a few things. First the tight cornering. Is there any way I can improve its turning radius? and how one can improve comfort? It is really stiff and uncomfortable so are there any suspension adjustments I can make or any aftermarket seats to install for improved comfort?
I do like its raunchy sound but I have been pulled over a couple of times for that so is there anything I can do to limit its sound?
And one more thing, my initial thoughts were to sell it and go for the scrambler but would it be a nice move to sell this and buy the Ducati scrambler? It is only 6900 miles driven so any estimate of how much will it be worth these days? and I think I could bag a 2020 scrambler around 9K. The bike is in pristine condition only a few scratches on the tank due to putting a tank bag over it. but I guess it could be removed by compound and buffing

Your suggestion would be highly appreciated.

Thanks.

RamonArmstrong said:

Your suggestion would be highly appreciated.

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I suggest you start your own thread. This one is about racing.