Race Commando handling secrets revealed

Acotrel i'm so with you on letting the spinal cord and brain stem learn do their thing and just let the brain tell that crew where to aim you. Rational brain has to give in to the faster reacting crew at some point, same as playing music or dancing. Once ya got it in your bones its on tap again about instantly but the bike and tires have to stablize to take what your reflexes tell ya it can. Fascinating addiction and so glad to hob nob with those that share and savor its thrills till it could do us in.


J.A.W. that was a wonderful enlightening Stoner summary, thank you so much. Peel couldn't reach those speeds but boy howdy that exactly how I handle Peel just before breaking out into phase 3. What Stoner is describing is the end states of phase 2 counter steering > just short of losing it > in tire, time and traction wasting crossed up flat tracker slide, as seen in celebration show off smoking rear runs by Rossi and others. Do note its a special turn he's able to do that on his super duper rigid.

The Stoner quote is one of the few to mention the wind pressure effects on front. I've run into that too but experience it differently on Peel, that is only when near lean limits over 60 mph wind gusts-eddies spill off sliders and lift then drop the whole bike and me which does not upset the linked isolastics or hobot Roadholders at all but does change lean angle slightly which changes turn radius and traction reaction. Its literally a balancing act to stay on slight tire spin power easing the rear around state - till apex then can get all mass on rear and blast through or out of ground effects like Stoner describes. Feels similar to small plane in turbulence. Peel seemed immune to semi trailer blasts or wind blasts hitting as clearing a bluff face. The lack of wind influence upright was one of Peels surprises after front and top links added, especially the top link - in case anyone keeping notes. Front link seems most effective taking out the fork wondering on road texture feeding back into rear end.

Peel handling was solved by the robust rear and wimpy front links but still felt sort of jiggley even if holding any line any way i wanted. She finished her disappearing act so nothing but rear patch sense get through, with the top rod link putting the polish waxed coat smoothness on.

Wait till the elites get so good they too don't have to bother with forks, just trip out the bike on throttle in the sharp stuff and lift the front out the way lining up for the opens.

Bikes can take severe short inputs but suck at long sustained high loads. One reason I want MO Power is in those longer sweepers to trip Peel out to jump her back up so I can drag race most of it in series of short straights. Faceting turns breaks decreasing radii into short harsh spin outs that line up longest next straight till can relax into the opens.

J.A.W. Isn't turn 3 at Phillip Island 'Honda corner' ? Two is Southern Loop ? Turn one just after the start . The speeds sound incredibly high unless he means the curve leading up to Honda corner ? The wind can crash you easily at Phillip Island and you can get a face full of sea gull. I crashed there four times in one day, twice at Siberia, and one was a biggie. The kids love it, but a get-off there is always too fast. I loved racing my short stroke Triumph there, but afterwards I had recurring bad dreams about riding down that long front straight with the revs slowly dropping instead of rising..

Correct Aco, I gather that Honda was grateful, even if KC turned down their $15,000,000 offer to ride next year.,
P.Is now has features named after Aussie senior class motorcycle G.P. World Champions, W.Gardner; M.Doohan; C.Stoner.
P.Is is one of the last fast,sweeping, natural circuits stiil in the G.P. schedule, it does sort the men from the seagulls, as you well know..

When I first raced there my Triumph was fitted with a drum brake with too much se lf-servo. It took me off at Southern Loop, Crashed me at 100mph at Siberia, took me off and crashed me in the next race , and threw me into the mud on the r eturn road into the pits late r . It all came down to trying to race with an untried bike . If you are lucky, you 'live and learn' ! P I is too fast to have a crash on. My feeling is that drum brakes should be ba nned for all road racing.

Aco, I reckon that was why the 1st generation bike disc set-ups were made to require a strong pull - with hydraulic linear response & no servo-action, but unlike some of those old drums wouldn`t lock no matter how hard you pulled on them, & yes that late `60s BSA/Triumph twin-leader is bitey, I crashed my bro`s bike like-wise, it felt like the drum held the shoes on... I note that the conical hub that superseded it was linear in feel, yet criticised as lame feeling - by riders used to the bitey type..

We should BAN all BRAKES : They only slow you down .

I am not sure you can say that a Seeley with a solid mounted Commando motor doesn't 'buzz', whatever you balance it at.
Last summer at a vintage race film shoot Kenny and I were both at, we actually switched race bikes, he rode my Commando and I rode his Seeley.
The Seeley is a great bike but I found the vibration very unpleasant and he in turn was amazed how smooth my Commando is. Both are similar in how quick they turn and hold a line.
I will say that I would like one of those TT gear boxes that he has from down under though, my 5 speed has given me the odd shifting glitch.

Can either of you feel any frame-fork relation twisting going on as felt between hand grips and foot pegs?

I can not feel Peel's internals at speed - [uncanny dangerous lack of speed sense] which is about as desirable to me than her needless excess handling - but clearly feels like almost an inch out of square at times. The only time she feels like this is in similar situations as seen in Doug's rear view video's, *all hell being loose* to gain some great space between bikes, then they all pack up at a chicane as if starting race all over again - to make the prior xcess excitement seem so silly to me. This is exactly what I'd hoped to see - as long as Peel can keep in sight of the 200 mph bikes, no way they can catch up what they lose in the real turning-learning-steering-traction-risking-power-handling proving grounds. When them corner cripples let off for the max traction risking points they stop accelerating much, but those are the points i long for-aim for- to get Peel's maxim G spikes as frame unwinds like a sling shot - either by my let off or on purpose traction breaking by throttle cuts or blips &/or fork snatching. Sure as hell can't be on the brake going into this. Hot dam you have no idea how revealing all this is to me on a compliant placid Commando. FFF i call it - with no nasty sex slang words thankyou very much.
Freaking Flabber*Gasting*ly Fabulous!

someone enquired about this recently,. Hobots system was simpler but this is the ultimate

Hey Doug...is that the same bike you had when I beat you at Mid-Ohio the last time we raced? (years ago now!)
Tell Herb I said howdy!
Bill Atkins

Nice work on the Commando Herb and Doug.

My approach to a better frame got a little carried away.



For lowest vibration:
Lightweight bare JS 750 piston = 185 grams
Ultra light bare 750 JS piston = 170 grams

Who'd believe a shade tree like hobot that if ya try to mimic the over rigid construction of Seeley's or Rickman's or GP elites you will still run into their innate limits that prevent over powering counter steering w/o slipping out or having to relieve load into long lazy flat tracker slides off the tangent wasting tires, time and traction. Ms Peel targets to challenge her are 4wd off road rally cars not pitiful bad harmonic handling cycles that fly off the handle & surface when the turning G's get high. So far only one Cdo set up like Peel so either I'm big liar w/o experience or ya'll don't have a concept of phase 3 and 4 handling breath taking freedoms w/o much pilot skill or effort thank goodness. Dividing turning traction between two conflicting *vector* patches instead of one is like delivering two lighter glancing off punches on an opponent instead of a single knock out blow each time. Too flexy or too rigid is bad ju ju. Too wide or too narrow contact patch also bad ju ju that limits fun with sudden terror. If ya can't keep front lifted out of effective traction fork full extension for further lean clearance into through and out of decreasing radius turns, oh well that's why I don't really think of road racing as much challenge but hp to mass contests after they all pile up at turns to start drag racing all over again a few times each circuit. Getting to maxed out far over counter steering turns is just first stage to cut loose of in 3 stage rocket like Peel was. BF is non issue too as Peel was rather smother than Goldwings loaded down with me reaching around to put hand on bar ends to feel what the pilot was, ugh, poor buzzy twitchy unstable things lacking the HUGE Inertial Mass sense of dampening of disappearing Peel's act. Rally cars steer into turns first to sharpen them and are heel toeing throttle and brake and jerking steering wheels back and forth like crazy to point and shoot through turns twisting on CoG to avoid flying off at tangents or flipping over. I can not even practice Peel's lines on other cycles only my 4wd hot rod short bed PU on grass mud & THE Gravel. Hope this makes no sense to anyone as proof of how much advantage hobot's Peel had over everything else trying not to crash changing directions fast.

vec·tor, ˈvektər: vector; plural noun: vectors

1. MathematicsPhysics
a quantity having direction as well as magnitude, especially as determining the position of one point in space relative to another.

Doug MacRae said:

I am not sure you can say that a Seeley with a solid mounted Commando motor doesn't 'buzz', whatever you balance it at.
Last summer at a vintage race film shoot Kenny and I were both at, we actually switched race bikes, he rode my Commando and I rode his Seeley.
The Seeley is a great bike but I found the vibration very unpleasant and he in turn was amazed how smooth my Commando is. Both are similar in how quick they turn and hold a line.
I will say that I would like one of those TT gear boxes that he has from down under though, my 5 speed has given me the odd shifting glitch.

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Ken's Seeley commando has a lightened crank ? Mine rocks back and forward when idling, however is super-smooth at speed with standard crank balanced at 72%. I know about vibration, my old triton was appalling. If I copped that with my Seeley, I'd sell it. My bike doesn't 'hold a line' it tightens it so that you must anticipate where the it will end up as it comes out onto the next straight - makes it extremely positive in corners. Bends following one after the other are interesting - really great fun. It suits my brainless riding style.

hobot said:

Who'd believe a shade tree like hobot that if ya try to mimic the over rigid construction of Seeley's or Rickman's or GP elites you will still run into their innate limits that prevent over powering counter steering w/o slipping out or having to relieve load into long lazy flat tracker slides off the tangent wasting tires, time and traction. Ms Peel targets to challenge her are 4wd off road rally cars not pitiful bad harmonic handling cycles that fly off the handle & surface when the turning G's get high. So far only one Cdo set up like Peel so either I'm big liar w/o experience or ya'll don't have a concept of phase 3 and 4 handling breath taking freedoms w/o much pilot skill or effort thank goodness. Dividing turning traction between two conflicting *vector* patches instead of one is like delivering two lighter glancing off punches on an opponent instead of a single knock out blow each time. Too flexy or too rigid is bad ju ju. Too wide or too narrow contact patch also bad ju ju that limits fun with sudden terror. If ya can't keep front lifted out of effective traction fork full extension for further lean clearance into through and out of decreasing radius turns, oh well that's why I don't really think of road racing as much challenge but hp to mass contests after they all pile up at turns to start drag racing all over again a few times each circuit. Getting to maxed out far over counter steering turns is just first stage to cut loose of in 3 stage rocket like Peel was. BF is non issue too as Peel was rather smother than Goldwings loaded down with me reaching around to put hand on bar ends to feel what the pilot was, ugh, poor buzzy twitchy unstable things lacking the HUGE Inertial Mass sense of dampening of disappearing Peel's act. Rally cars steer into turns first to sharpen them and are heel toeing throttle and brake and jerking steering wheels back and forth like crazy to point and shoot through turns twisting on CoG to avoid flying off at tangents or flipping over. I can not even practice Peel's lines on other cycles only my 4wd hot rod short bed PU on grass mud & THE Gravel. Hope this makes no sense to anyone as proof of how much advantage hobot's Peel had over everything else trying not to crash changing directions fast.

vec·tor, ˈvektər: vector; plural noun: vectors

1. MathematicsPhysics
a quantity having direction as well as magnitude, especially as determining the position of one point in space relative to another.

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Steve, have you ever ridden a 500cc Jawa speedway bike ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8utWQggs-A

What do you use your Norton for ? If you race and have to concentrate that much to stay aboard the bike, how can you keep mentally ahead of other riders ? When I ride my own bike, I don't ever have to think about what I am doing, it happens automatically - so I can concentrate on what the other idiots are doing.

Ugh fate forced me into extremes w/o any prior experience but bicycles on sugar sand thrown on purpose in front of a fire hydrant on side walk corner with a thorny stout hedge trimmed flush with the sidewalk in game to make the turn any way ya could and leaving the crashes where they were for the next maniac - though after best buddy runs right over your face or groin in the focused intensity developed we allowed the trapped pilots to crawl away in time or dragged out the way if we weren't about to take off on tail of last one to launch. We had no armor so stabs and cuts and pinches and skin loss with whiplash and concussions refined our skills and increased speeds till we could actually make the turn after a bounce off someones tire and deflection off hedge snagging. Prior we did it on steel roller skates so rolling stuff out of traction just comes naturally. One example pure spinal cord muscle memory with nothing to lose in '04 was going down slope ~25 mph a few dozen yards before a crook in my driveway d/t a hunk of bluff point sticking out on 2 rut path with fence tight to it, tractor with 3 bare hay spikes lowered life a bull charge filled the whole level space so instinctively switched to hi power rear steering a kick out to hit the vertical side wall like landing from a few ft high jump it impacts so hard, to get up onto 'canyon wall' essential horizontal with head sticking out over the closer rut to pass a foot over the tractor tire, with time passing so 'slow' I noticed tractor had brand new tire with casting nubbins sticking out all over still shiney surface of mold release with some screaming og two men voices blending with heads about 3 ft apart... to next see the hunk of bluff rock wall a few bikes lengths off zooming in so nailed more power to swing rear higher 'overhead' to turn canyon wall into flat tracker crossed up slide onto gentle slope that aimed us back to grade for a bottom out hit and hi side bounce towards fence that landed mostly vertical just pass the rock jutting out and rear of tractor hitch clearing to end going about 35 mph just fine as I always take the section past the narrows. That was on Ms Peel and one of the intense bonding events that gives her life to me by saving mine now and then. Peel has flat conquered pussy cat pavement pounding - so best wishes the rest of you find such cycle security in your remaining lifetimes.

Here's the approach taken for the Dogwood tree where the easier slope allowed the downward aimed power slide just beyond essentially vertical side slope.

We should BAN all BRAKES : They only slow you down

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With a perfectly neutral handling energy storing frame that's got punch enough to lift front out of traction in turns, brakes don't function well or at all for slowing purposes. In fact its funner faster not to really slow up much for turns but set up to convert one vector of rush into other direction. At some point it can feel more like bouncing in and out of crashes which I cal 'Ricochet Rabbit Riding' and would be name sake of a riding ranch I have designed to bring other pilots up to speed handling digital traction states. One thing everyone and their sister is missing out on with smooth philosophy is tire grip is absolute worse loading it constantly in one contact band but ya can Spike loads on them for an instant that more than equals the direction changing force and speed of easing into and out of turns. Those sharp intense instants are worth more than a life time on ordinary handling cycles. But hey since a no body constructed Peel as a one in a row, it must just be my wishful thinking to get distasteful public feedback so often. Just keep tires in lower sonic zones ya hear.

Hey Doug...is that the same bike you had when I beat you at Mid-Ohio the last time we raced? (years ago now!)
Tell Herb I said howdy!
Bill Atkins

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Hey Bill! I have been away traveling so just saw your post now. I can't actually remember if it was this one or my previous generation bike, that was right around when I switched machines. That was good fun racing Mid-Ohio though. I should be out there this year if Herb gets my barrels back, we sent them out to get new iron inserts hardened and the turn around time was unexpectedly over a month. I will let Herb know you say hello.
Later, Doug

Thanks for sharing your secrets,great stuff!

indeed ,great to see mods really explained.Will try some of these out ,specially swingingarmpivot height
THANKS FOR SHARING