Panic: 932 fine tuning question

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Dr_Hiller

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Panic:

I have your Amal Tuning book, and after some time with my 932's, I've come to a question I can't answer. The idle and low-end of the low speed circuit run rich. (Just off idle to 1/4 or 1/3 throttle)

Some background:
10.25:1, std stroke, 76.63mm bore, Johnson J360 cam. Keith also did my head: enlarged intake, stock exhaust valve, reduced intake port size (raised the port floor). Thermal barrier coatings everywhere appropriate. Open reverse-cone mega on 2:1, 1 1/2", 29"primary exhaust. Boyer is timed to 28deg (some pinking occurred at 31deg on a water-brake roller setup, none when I backed it off - larger main jet may cure this, see below).

Good shot of the megaphone below;

Panic: 932 fine tuning question


Carbs are resleeved 932's. 106 needle jet, needles in the middle position, as far as I can tell the float is properly set. # 3 slide cutaway. Possibly the source of my full throttle pinging, what seems like an undersized 230 main jet (plugs go white on high speed blasts and engine falls a little flat at full throttle). Idles clean with the air screw out 1 3/4 turns - falters and stumbles at 2 turns.

Whether I'm spinning it at 4k or lugging it at 1800rpm, the plugs get sooty and black at low throttle openings. I have some dyno time scheduled and am looking for your thoughts. I want to make the time as productive as possible while I'm paying.

I've never heard of someone using a 2 1/2 slide cutaway, so I've ruled that out. The carb's have brass slides, so it'd mean another set if that was the consensus answer. I'll go to VM34's if that's the case.

The needle position seems fine - and, if I understand this correctly, it doesn't come into play at low throttle openings. Your book suggests that one can enlarge the air correction port. Is that a reasonable project? Can I calculate the amount of enlargement needed from the A/F ratio from the dyno runs?

Thanks in advance.
 
My carb solution.....

I am by no means an expert mechanic but here is my suggestion:

Try using the top notch (leanest) position on your needles. I messed with my new set of 932's for some time and it was never right until I lowered the needles. Now my bike idles and runs great. Give it a try. Good luck!
 
I would go up on the main jet and try a 3.5 slide cutaway. the larger # is leaner on the slide. if the cam is to far advanced it will cause low throttle opening problems like you are having from reversion in the intake tract.


windy
 
I agree with Bill; your throttle slides are too rich.

Install 3.5 slides and your problem should go away.
 
Thanks for the replies.

First, whoops - got the lean-rich order backwards on the slide cutaways in my post. :oops:

I'm betting you're right about the 3 1/2's being the answer though. It's the right part of the throttle progression.

I went with the #3 slides because of the similarity in my setup to the Combat build. The workshop manual calls for #3's, 106 needle jet and 230 main jets - so I used that as a starting point.

The Dunstall Tuning manual also calls for #3's, 107 needle jet and 270-310 mains.

This is a bit of a problem as I had the 932's sleeved and I'm pretty sure #3 1/2 cutaway slides aren't a drop-in replacement.
Panic: 932 fine tuning question


Anyone know if I can have a second set of slides sleeved without the trouble of sending the carbs off on a round-trip journey? Think I can send just the slides?

Can't seem to find the website for the nice guy in Canada who did the first set either. Is Rocky Point the other vendor people have used?

Thanks in advance.
 
You should be able to purchase a set of 3.5 slides without sending in the carbs.

A classic symtom of over-rich slides is that the bike will stall at a stop sign/light after a period of trailing throttle. This occurs when the bike is warmed up and is less noticeable when cold.
 
Hello!

I have a -73 750 Interstate running new 32mm. Amals.The old Amals on my bike was running rich like yours.I made a temporary fix by adding an extra groove above the top notch on the needles.This compensated for my worn needlejets and needles until they were replaced. When I finally replaced both carbs I found 3 1/2 slides in the new ones.I run 230 main , .106 needlejet and peashooters The difference I could see was some sneezing during warmup at 1/4-1/3 throttle, esp. when chokeslides were rised early.I belive the 3 1/2 slides came with the 850 Commando.
I have learned to live with them now,and and when the motor is warm there is no difference that I can notice.

Benton
 
Bruce Chessell (Triton Machining) in Ontario is the nice guy in Canada. He no longer maintains the website but he is still doing the resleeving as far as I know. I don't think you can just drop in new slides because he opens up the body somewhat. Try this e-mail: bchessell@odyssey.on.ca

Russ
 
Get hold of 2 old 3 1/2 slides and send them to your original carb resleever, they should be resleeving to a std size expect for badly worn carbs. Need to do the same to a Victor, it has a resleeved 932 850 MK2A carb with a 3 slide and is rich just off idle, needle is on top groove.
 
If you are very sure of yourself there is no reason to not use the book Panic sold you and file the cutaway to a leaner one. I believe that about a 1/32 does it for one step So a 1/64 for a half and so on. I have decent used ones around of each size and they can be used to scribe a fine line for this work.
I bought the .1055 reamer that Panic recommended from MSC and make my own jets the bought ones are all over the place. This in fact could be your problem. Check those needle jets with a gage pin do not trust the #'s on the side. Out of 6 new ones you are lucky to find a pair within speck.Buy 105 and ream em.
 
Although creating a super-lean position with a new top clip groove will cause leaner mixture, it also disturbs the circuit function progression overlap and sequence. Can't hurt to try it, but moving the entire taper out of the original range is likely to cause other strange maladies; typically it will require another 1/2 to 1 size larger needle jet to compensate for the fact that the larger diameter is obscuring the jet until at least 3/4 throttle, where you do not want to be lean.
 
Thanks for the info.

I ordered 105 needle jets and 270 through 310 mains. I also e-mailed Bruce about sleeved 3 1/2's. It'd be nice to get the off-idle fuel curve sorted once and for all.

I'll post dyno results when available. My appointment is for the end of next week, but I may have to push it back if I can't get the right slides.
 
Well, it's pretty clear to me that Bruce Chessell is an outstanding human being. He's going to recut my slides to #3 1/2 specs (23 degrees from 20 degrees) at no charge.

Thanks again to all for your help and suggestions.
 
[I bought the .1055 reamer that Panic recommended from MSC and make my own jets the bought ones are all over the place.

I can remember Amal claiming that the jet numbers did not relate to a measured hole but a specific flow rate. Is that why you are finding differing bores for the same jet number? Probably not QC went off Amal's radar years ago

Cash
 
The needle jet size is the exact ID in inches, not the flow rate (the main jet size is the flow rate), but a jet made with a ream will not flow the exact figure as a factory jet.
 
Panic,
No argument there it rings a bell.
Years ago and long lost now, I had a complete set of jet drills for Amal from 15 to 300. The main jet number funnily roughly equals the bore radius, I think :roll: I'm sure that's how they mic'd up, hell! it was 50 years ago.
Cash
 
It's entirely right to be cautious, many motors have been blown by using a drill as a gauge, and assuming that if a drill "feels tight" the jet is the same ID.
The length of the hole, the entry and exit taper, the finish (as seen in a microscope) etc. all affect the flow rate, and 2 "identical", new .106 jets may easily be 5% apart in actual flow. Even flow-rated jets have an "acceptable range"; a 300 may be (example only!!) between 295 and 305. This makes for headaches when you have a twin, especially when you only have 1 correct jet and have to fab the other one.
Normally, for twins I suggest a fabricated jet for testing only (saves money and time to get the general direction of the work), and replace them with new factory parts (once the best size is known) if there are any differences in color, knock sensitivity, carbon, etc. between the cylinders. Use a pin vise (not a drill motor), use a lubricant for brass, work slowly, never cut past any hard resistance, and examine the interior for scrapes, spiral marks etc. - if the surface isn't really clean, use it as a donor for the next larger size because you don't know what it will do.

One of these days, I'm going to make up a test fixture with a big burette on top, a jet-sized female-threaded hole at the bottom, and a paddle switch float in a tall pan underneath. Turn the petcock, start your stop-watch, and a known quantity of liquid (gas is dangerous, but try to use something with similar viscosity, not alcohol) passes through the jet. When the pan level reaches the paddle, it sounds an alarm. The burette level tells you how much passed, the watch tell how long it took (CC of fuel per minute is the Amal main jet size). Now try the other jet.
Trust your sense of when the motor is happy rather than the number on the jet!
 
Thanks for expanding on the topic. I'd love to try the flow testing, and since I've now got a few pairs of jets kicking around, maybe I will.

I have a pair of .105's in hand and will put those and some 270 mains in this afternoon and see how it "feels".

That brings me to a question. Panic's book says that a lean slide cutaway will hesitate on throttle opening and also says that a megaphone generally requires a slightly richer slide. Am I reading that wrong? Will the .105 lean the off idle mixture without changing the throttle tip-in?

The .1055 reamer and gauge pin are on the way. However, you've got me suitably worried about my ability to do the job accurately. Think I'll hold off for a bit.
 
Your words "The idle and low-end of the low speed circuit run rich. (Just off idle to 1/4 or 1/3 throttle) "


Right in the area of the cut away and the NJ . Having both things to play with but as Panic says NJ are cheaper and more likely to be off size from the get go. The .1055 pin gage would come in handy for checking the 106's you were running. I know you can feel the oval on a worn pair with this gage.
Has Bruce already started the machining is it too late to try this first?
 
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