P11 Frame Repair

tribonnie · Jun 11, 2024

Looking at my P11 frame, it has had a really bad repair at the tube where the sidestand fits. This has resulted in the front engine lugs out of alignment.
Looking for recommendations of someone in the U.K., ideally in the Midlands, who is able to correct the repair and check the frame alignment.
Thanks Richard

Schwany · Jun 11, 2024

You are aware that the two very front engine mount spacers are of different thicknesses? Just throwing it out there if you think they are supposed to be the same and the lugs are out of alignment.

I suggest if you are still planning to keep the P11 that you purchase the engine stud, nut, washer, and spacer kit 13.1653 from Andover Norton. That way you get it right if you are trying to put together a basket case that was fully disassembled when you got it.

Feel free to ignore me if I am way out of line.

mdt-son · Jun 11, 2024

Obtaining a good spare frame is probably a better idea than attempting a frame repair.

Your challenge is not finding a frame builder who still employs tube joining by brazing. Your challenge will be:

a) Tubes in the original size are probably no longer available, unless you are willing to pay Reynolds Tube Co. for making a few 1000 meter of these tubes,
b) Obtaining copies of factory drawings. I know drawings exist of the G85 frame, but drawings showing the P11 specifics (including location of front engine lugs) may be lost. Discuss with Anthony Curzon about availability. Access to another intact frame may be a necessity.

You should consider switching to a Rickman Mk3 frame. The Rickman design is much better suited to road work than the P11, and parts are readily available.
Total cost for a rolling chassis may be lower.

- Knut

tribonnie · Jun 12, 2024

Schwany said:
You are aware that the two very front engine mount spacers are of different thicknesses? Just throwing it out there if you think they are supposed to be the same and the lugs are out of alignment.

I suggest if you are still planning to keep the P11 that you purchase the engine stud, nut, washer, and spacer kit 13.1653 from Andover Norton. That way you get it right if you are trying to put together a basket case that was fully disassembled when you got it.

Feel free to ignore me if I am way out of line.

Thanks for replies. Unfortunately cannot post pictures. I suspect damage to the sidestand caused damage to the frame tube and someone has made a very crude repair by welding on a 6 inch tube over the damaged areas. I suspect heat and poor measurement has put that area of the frame, up to the headstock out of line.

When I put a rod through the “good side” front engine plate lugs they don’t line up with the repaired side. A simple repair for someone who knows what they are doing, cut out the old repair and make a good whilst re-aligning the 2 front frame tubes.

Richard

tribonnie · Jun 12, 2024

mdt-son said:
Obtaining a good spare frame is probably a better idea than attempting a frame repair.

Your challenge is not finding a frame builder who still employs tube joining by brazing. Your challenge will be:

a) Tubes in the original size are probably no longer available, unless you are willing to pay Reynolds Tube Co. for making a few 1000 meter of these tubes,
b) Obtaining copies of factory drawings. I know drawings exist of the G85 frame, but drawings showing the P11 specifics (including location of front engine lugs) may be lost. Discuss with Anthony Curzon about availability. Access to another intact frame may be a necessity.

You should consider switching to a Rickman Mk3 frame. The Rickman design is much better suited to road work than the P11, and parts are readily available.
Total cost for a rolling chassis may be lower.

- Knut

Knut, the P11 frame is possible the heaviest frame I have ever owned.
Have owned many frames for Triumph, Norton, Enfield and Rickman and all are considerable lighter. Even handled a one-off Ken Srayson 531 tubed Enfield frame which was probably less than half the weight of a P11a frame. I understand they are brazed Reynold 531 but must be super thick tube wall possible to handle the rigours of off-road racing.

mdt-son · Jun 12, 2024

We need to compare like-for-like. I don't know about Triumph and Enfield; the Commando frame is unbelievably light, but is lug-less, minimalistic, and not created for offroad use.
The Rickman Mk3 frame should be comparable to the P11, but is of lug-less design which will save some weight.
I have examined the P11's tubes and I'd say they are rather thin-walled, except for the spine tube whose wall thickness is moderately thick, from memory about 1/16".

- Knut

Roddy · Aug 22, 2024

tribonnie said:
Looking at my P11 frame, it has had a really bad repair at the tube where the sidestand fits. This has resulted in the front engine lugs out of alignment.
Looking for recommendations of someone in the U.K., ideally in the Midlands, who is able to correct the repair and check the frame alignment.
Thanks Richard

Hi Richard, John Hand at JHR has successfully repaired 2 P11 frames with side stand damage.

Ron L · Aug 23, 2024

On a similar subject are there any frame specialists in the U.S., east of the Mississippi who are familiar with P11/G85 frames?

t ingermanson · Aug 23, 2024

mdt-son said:
a) Tubes in the original size are probably no longer available, unless you are willing to pay Reynolds Tube Co. for making a few 1000 meter of these tubes,

Reynolds still makes and sells "motorcycle tubing" in the 631 alloy, an "air hardening alloy", which limits the heat affected zone.

A repair with a patch will shorten the tube by varying amounts, especially if poorly done, with heat distortion, so alignment will be affected. Best to limit the heat to the frame, by either TIG welding or silver sweat brazing the patch, or replace the damaged bit of tube.

The Reynolds motorcycle tubing is still very thin though, so, personally, I'd repair side stand damage with a good old fashioned thick-walled 4130 replacement length.

tribonnie · Aug 24, 2024

Roddy said:
Hi Richard, John Hand at JHR has successfully repaired 2 P11 frames with side stand damage.

Thanks for that, looks like impressive work.

mdt-son · Aug 24, 2024

Roddy said:
Hi Richard, John Hand at JHR has successfully repaired 2 P11 frames with side stand damage.

JHR - John hand racing | Sturminster Newton

JHR - John hand racing, Sturminster Newton. 2,658 likes · 2 were here. Bespoke hand made motorcycle chassis, classic, custom, Aircraft quality steel tubing bronze brazed 🔥

www.facebook.com

Thank you for the reference. Looking up his FB presentation, I don't see a P11 depicted. Very nice braze weldings on various Rickman and Cheney frames, apparently high quality work, but where is the frame jig? When you claim P11 frames were "successfully repaired", who made this testimony, and how was the work performed?

-Knut

tribonnie · Aug 24, 2024

Roddy said:
Hi Richard, John Hand at JHR has successfully repaired 2 P11 frames with side stand damage.

mdt-son said:
JHR - John hand racing | Sturminster Newton

JHR - John hand racing, Sturminster Newton. 2,658 likes · 2 were here. Bespoke hand made motorcycle chassis, classic, custom, Aircraft quality steel tubing bronze brazed 🔥

www.facebook.com

Thank you for the reference. Looking up his FB presentation, I don't see a P11 depicted. Very nice braze weldings on various Rickman and Cheney frames, apparently high quality work, but where is the frame jig? When you claim P11 frames were "successfully repaired", who made this testimony, and how was the work performed?

-Knut

Knut, I guess a couple of frame repairs don’t figure to highly in their FB profile judging by their other work. Have known Rody on and off for many years so happy with his recomendation
Richard

P11 Frame Repair

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