New Product for Tri-Spark users

New Product for Tri-Spark users
Many Norton owners have started using Steve Kelly's Tri-Spark ignition system. They do seem to run our bikes well. With the brain box right in the point’s chamber, engine heat, although allowed for in the design, could be reduced to some degree with the use of a heat insulating gasket which would keep the points cover cooler than normal. I have made such a gasket and will sell it for 6.00 in the lower 48 for use with his systems. It is made of a product used just for this purpose - 1/32” thick and black in color. These gaskets are Laser cut because of the toughness and hardness of the material.
It’s on my site the last product in the store section. Or just PM me on the board or my email if your already a customer. And yes, I have Steve's permission to use his product name in the text for this product. We will do some testing with an inferred gun as soon as the rain goes away using the stock gasket and then a new gasket on a Commando. Meanwhile I see no harm in using one and many of my clients have asked for this. Thanks for your read over. Greg

When I bought my 850 in around 1975 it had already been fitted with the original Boyer ignition which had all it's 'stuff' in the original points cover. I hadn't had it long before the engine started cutting out when hot due to lack of sparks! The replacement Boyer that I fitted at that time had the separate black box which fitted under the tank, it's still working fine.
For that reason i'd be very wary of a system which had all the electronic stuff where it's subject to a lot of heat,
Dave.

daveparry said:

When I bought my 850 in around 1975 it had already been fitted with the original Boyer ignition which had all it's 'stuff' in the original points cover. I hadn't had it long before the engine started cutting out when hot due to lack of sparks! The replacement Boyer that I fitted at that time had the separate black box which fitted under the tank, it's still working fine.
For that reason i'd be very wary of a system which had all the electronic stuff where it's subject to a lot of heat,
Dave.

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A lot of time has passed since Boyer designed its ignition, also, Boyer's "puck" was an analog design which could and probably was sensitive to temperature. A modern digital design like the TriSpark is most likely immune to temperature shifts in its operation but making it run cooler can't hurt.

Jean

Having spent 40 odd years as a television engineer I know how vulnerable semiconductors are to heat so i'm still not convinced!
Dave.

Just got done ordering one for my Tri-Spark. Thanks Greg for making this item. Jerry

daveparry said:

Having spent 40 odd years as a television engineer I know how vulnerable semiconductors are to heat so i'm still not convinced!
Dave.

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With proper design, no problem, with Boyer... not so sure :mrgreen:

Jean

PS I fixed computers for 40 years so its not like I know nothing about electronics.

Commercail electrical components are rated to 55C and can often be pushed to 85C. Military parts are rated to 125C and can often be pushed to 150C. The head reaches temperatures north of 220C. While the timing case is always a bit cooler, it is a strange place to be placing any electronics, when a cooler 35C environment is available on the frame. While the TriSpark circuit may hold together for a few temperature test runs, the components will experience a shorter lifetime due to the stress of heat cycles that occur every time the bike is operated. To make matters worse, the engine is the highest vibration point on the bike; the frame has at least the benefit of the isolastic suspension. Fortunately, many of us ride recreationally, on short trips in temperate climates, so the effect of the nasty timing case environment is reduced a bit. To riders who are planning trips involving hours on a hot freeway (or hours idling on hot city streets), you may want to give some additional thought to your choice of EI type.

quote, " PS I fixed computers for 40 years "

wow i just learnt how to turn one on with out being afraid id brake something 4 years ago !!
any body remember a thing called a slide rule? :roll:
sorry back to the subject !

PS I fixed computers for 40 years so its not like I know nothing about electronics.
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Not quite the same as working to component level though for seeing results of component failures Jean, as you know computer repair usually consists of replacing boards, power supply unit's & drives etc, very rarely anything down to component level repair,
Dave.

as I understand it , this gasket is intended to keep the points cover cooler ..right ?
But I would think that all heat taken up ( and dissipated ) by the cover would help to keep the points cavity cooler ?
IMO ,heat insulation , if nessecary , should be placed between the Trispark and the Timing cover .
To me , it looks like this gasket is great to keep the heat IN, not to let it out .
Does anyone ever heard of Trispark failure by excessive heat ?
It can get pretty hot in Australia , I suppose they must have gotten some feed back by now ?

daveparry said:

For that reason i'd be very wary of a system which had all the electronic stuff where it's subject to a lot of heat,

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You are not the first to be concerned, here's a previous thread from two years ago: [Link updated] https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/tri-spark-classic-twin.2495/

I do have a Classic Twin system fitted on my Commando.

ludwig said:

as I understand it , this gasket is intended to keep the points cover cooler ..right ?
But I would think that all heat taken up ( and dissipated ) by the cover would help to keep the points cavity cooler ?

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By the shape of the gasket it looks as though it is placed between the trispark plate and the timing cover not the points cover.

Hi All,
I could have cut one to go underneath the unit, but that would open a can of worms. There is an engineered air gap for the interface of the magnet and the circuit board. In this design the tips of the magnets face the back of the board. Some checking of this gap is needed because the locating taper in cam shafts do vary compared to the surface the plate mounts on. It has to be close but not rub the back of the board. Moving it out a 1/32 and than trying to shim out the taper is not a good plan. Remember too that the material that the unit is made from is also not a good conductor of heat.
So far the highest temp recorded inside the chamber is 80 Celsius in testing done by Steve. And the design is built to take this. My endeavor was to make this just a little better buy keeping the outer cover better insulated from engine heat. Being the cover is in the air flow the covers operating temperature goes down compared to a paper gasket.
Aluminum dissipates heat fast relative to other metals having a 3.220 diameter disk of aluminum run cooler than before was thought to be a good thing not a bad one.
Testing will be done and shown here if it will quit raining.
The enemy of good enough is better. You always have the choice of doing nothing more than you have done. I never foresaw that a few people could be so vocal about failures that have not occurred with this product. I am amazed at how good these units work on our bikes I think they speak volumes on their own behalf if you just witness one going on to a bike that had an older system in it. Any tuner will tell you it is night and day difference. Much work was put into the product these things do not do themselves.

norbsa48503 said:

I never foresaw that a few people could be so vocal about failures that have not occurred with this product. I am amassed at how good these units work on our bikes I think they speak volumes on their own behalf if you just witness one going on to a bike that had an older system in it. Any tuner will tell you it is night and day difference. Much work was put into the product these things do not do themselves.

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I think the real problem is that you may want to show a picture of how the gasket works. From just looking at the picture of the gasket I don't see where it fits or how it benefits the TriSpark. I think what it's meant to do is lessen the heat transfer from the timing cover to the points cover. Is this right?

Should be pretty simple to take some infrared readings of the points cover with and without the gasket. When it stops raining, of course. :mrgreen:

I would have thought it better to allow the cover to dissipate some of the available heat rather than insulating it? maybe helped by using one of those 'finned' covers,
Dave.

daveparry said:

PS I fixed computers for 40 years so its not like I know nothing about electronics.
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Not quite the same as working to component level though for seeing results of component failures Jean, as you know computer repair usually consists of replacing boards, power supply unit's & drives etc, very rarely anything down to component level repair,
Dave.

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If you say so, but please remember that computers not so long ago were big and needed repair to the component level. While I did not design the things, I did see good and bad designs over the years and I think I learned a few things too.

Jean

norbsa48503 said:

The enemy of good enough is better. You always have the choice of doing nothing more than you have done. I never foresaw that a few people could be so vocal about failures that have not occurred with this product. I am amassed at how good these units work on our bikes I think they speak volumes on their own behalf if you just witness one going on to a bike that had an older system in it. Any tuner will tell you it is night and day difference. Much work was put into the product these things do not do themselves.

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I bought the Classic Twin kit on the strength of what Steve Kelly said here two years ago, as he obviously had a lot of faith in his product, and mine has performed perfectly since then, so no grumbles from me, and from reading all the chat about electronic ignitions for our bikes, both here and on other forums since that time, I can only deduce that the Classic Twin appears to be the least problematic of them all, whether that's actually due to the quality and design of the Classic Twin unit or because the very simple wiring installation reduces the number of potentially bad electrical connections the "fitter" can make, I don't know, but I would definitely recommend the Classic Twin kit to anybody thinking of buying one. As for ultimate reliability and longevity, I suppose only time will tell?

Having given it a little more thought, maybe insulating the cover and keeping it cooler might help in as much as there won't be as much heat radiated from the inside of the cover onto the electronic unit? I'm still not convinced about having the electronics in there though, but as someone else said time will tell!
Dave.

norbsa48503 said:

.. There is an engineered air gap for the interface of the magnet and the circuit board. In this design the tips of the magnets face the back of the board. Some checking of this gap is needed because the locating taper in cam shafts do vary compared to the surface the plate mounts on. It has to be close but not rub the back of the board. Moving it out a 1/32 and than trying to shim out the taper is not a good plan...

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I put the unit on a lathe , so I could move it away from the magnets while running .
I found that the air gap is not critical .
It's been a while , but IIRC , it worked well up to a gap of 5 mm .

OK Ludwig, If I understand you, it's your opinion that I should make it behind the unit and than just a paper gasket under the points cover. I am having a hard time dealing with that thinking. All that air outside with no more effective way to keep it cool meanwhile insulating something that doesn’t carry heat that well to start with. Right now let me test what I have done than I can go on from there please.