Mk3 Estart

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I have a Mk III with 4,000 miles which is stone stock except for Tri-Spark ignition, single Mikuni and upgraded elect. cables. It had a 14 aH Yuasa battery which started the bike instantly until it failed recently at 4 1/2 years of age. I replaced it with a 21 aH Lithium Iron battery which also starts the bike instantly with a press of the button and is a perfect fit in the battery tray while being 1/3 the weight. Pricey, though.
 
I have a Mk III with 4,000 miles which is stone stock except for Tri-Spark ignition, single Mikuni and upgraded elect. cables. It had a 14 aH Yuasa battery which started the bike instantly until it failed recently at 4 1/2 years of age. I replaced it with a 21 aH Lithium Iron battery which also starts the bike instantly with a press of the button and is a perfect fit in the battery tray while being 1/3 the weight. Pricey, though.

Good heavy cables, stock Amals, stock original starter and sprag, a good quality battery, and Pazon ignition which will fire properly down to about 9 volts without a Boyer-style rogue spark .... 2-1/2 years and no problems.

Lannis
 
That could work, maybe someone will do the test. I'm not sure what advantage it would have over the tiny isolated battery, especially if multiple capacitors are involved.

I see a lot of advantages, especially if using modern Lithium-Ion capacitors. Specific power of such a capacitor is up to 15 times that of a lead battery; No danger of acid spill or freezing; light weight; good adaptability to space requirements; very low self-discharge rate compared to a lead battery; favourable discharge behaviour (low volage drop, nearly no current drop); 30 x the cycle durability of a lead battery; and operating temperature range between -25 and 70 degrees C. The only disadvantage I can see is the price - a pack of 4 of these supercapacitors cost well over $100 but they will most likely last a lifetime. 4 off 200F/3.8V makes a 50F/15.2V capacitor, capable of handling even the peak charging voltage.

-Knut
 
Sounds like it would be worth a try.
Do these capacitors have a wider working voltage range than the common Li batteries?
That was the problem I encountered with Ballistic batteries.
That and a very short life span, although the sales blurb promised ten years.



Glen
 
My MK3 Estart has been non functioning for several years now. It sort of worked when I bought the bike 14 years ago, but the sprag slipped a lot. I fitted a new $150 sprag from Norvil and that self destructed after a couple of dozen starts.
So it's been kickstart only since then, but it is an easy starter( Early Boyer)
As others have noted, the early Boyer and the Estart are a bad mix.
Unless the battery is at tip top voltage, the starter drags the Voltage down too low for the Boyer to function properly. Kickbacks occur and the sprag can break.
Or as mine generally did on cold start, it whirled over with gusto but only fired when the starter button was released.

One cure for this would be to fit a new ignition which will work at a lower voltage, or to fit the original points back in the bike.
Other than the Estart problem , I do like the old Boyer, can't fault it and it is proven.

My intention was to redo the starter drive with the new high grade CNW Mk3 drive parts when those came available and that might still happen. At the moment tho, the CNW parts are not available and it seemed like time to get this starter working again.

I have two modern bikes which have EI that is supposed to be able to function
at lower voltage. The Triumph Daytona can be a bit of a bear to cold start after sitting for awhile, even with a fully topped battery. I always assumed that this was just a case of needing to roll over a fair bit to get fuel into the dry cylinders. One day, quite by accident, I cold started the bike with the big battery charger still attached to the battery. The bike hadn't been started in months but it started instantly, as though I had just shut off the warm engine and then touched the button.
That had me thinking about the Commando Estart.

So this was the plan- fit a tiny second 12 volt battery on the bike somewhere and switch the ignition circuit through a separate direct fed, on off on, double pole double throw toggle switch in a hidden location.
In forward position the ignition circuit is fed by the isolated small battery and gets full voltage , the starter motor rolling over has no effect on it. In rear position the main battery supplies power to the ignition plus the switch is jumpered so that the small battery is now in parallel with the main battery . This means that the small battery gets charged along with the big battery in normal running.

I can report that this works beautifully, the bike cold starts instantly just like the Daytona did with big battery charger connected.
The second battery is quite tiny in size, just 1.3 ah and about an inch and a half thick by two inches high and three and three quarters long. I made a mount that fits to the left side shock bolt, the battery sits right there under the seat and between the rear fender & the seat frame loop. Cost for the battery was $21 at an Electronics shop.

I also fitted a $17 Chinese sprag from Alibaba. Too soon to say if it is good or bad, but it has already outlived the expensive Norvil sprag.

Glen
I have a electric start 850 that starts just fine. And you're right about the Boyer unit. I use the Lucas points in mine with a Duracell Extreem battery I bought from Batteries Plus. Larger cable from the battery, solenoid, ground and starter motor help.
 
I see a lot of advantages, especially if using modern Lithium-Ion capacitors. Specific power of such a capacitor is up to 15 times that of a lead battery; No danger of acid spill or freezing; light weight; good adaptability to space requirements; very low self-discharge rate compared to a lead battery; favourable discharge behaviour (low volage drop, nearly no current drop); 30 x the cycle durability of a lead battery; and operating temperature range between -25 and 70 degrees C. The only disadvantage I can see is the price - a pack of 4 of these supercapacitors cost well over $100 but they will most likely last a lifetime. 4 off 200F/3.8V makes a 50F/15.2V capacitor, capable of handling even the peak charging voltage.

-Knut

I've never seen anyone use li-ion capacitors in a bike, but it sounds like a likely application, and superior in some ways to li-ion batteries. Are there any disadvantages to using them? Have you tried them yet? They would be perfect for Nortons if they came in a blue aluminum can:D

Ken
 
Looking into the li-ion capacitor idea some more reveals a couple of concerns. Although they are pretty good in energy density compared to lead-acid batteries, they have only one-fifth the energy density of li-ion batteries. Another concern is that the voltage starts to drop as soon as the cap starts to discharge, compared to a battery that maintains a fairly uniform voltage until it gets significantly discharged. Sounds like they might be a good alternative for pre-MK3 commandos, acting like the old blue can cap that worked pretty well as a battery eliminator. But maybe not so hot for an electric start model, at least when compared to something like the li-fe Shorai batteries.

Ken
 
Mine continues to start easily ( in the shop:)
It will be interesting to see how it does next year and if the cheap sprag holds up.
If it does I'll order a couple more and replace the sprag the instant that it slips noticeably.
Had a look on YouTube at numerous electric start MK3 Commando startup videos.
Sadly, all were kickstarting except this good looking guy named Jerry Doe. His started on the button.

Glen
 
Just received my 18 roller $prag in the mail. Tougher looking with a thicker black cage and obviously the 18 smaller rollers or whatever they are called instead of the 14 , hopefully a bit more grabbing surface contact with the sprocket internals using that idea. Can hardly wait for my stock one to break in order to install it.
 
Mine continues to start easily ( in the shop:)
It will be interesting to see how it does next year and if the cheap sprag holds up.
If it does I'll order a couple more and replace the sprag the instant that it slips noticeably.
Had a look on YouTube at numerous electric start MK3 Commando startup videos.
Sadly, all were kickstarting except this good looking guy named Jerry Doe. His started on the button.

Glen
Shoot , I cant find my kick starter:eek:
Mk3 Estart
 
Looking into the li-ion capacitor idea some more reveals a couple of concerns. Although they are pretty good in energy density compared to lead-acid batteries, they have only one-fifth the energy density of li-ion batteries. Another concern is that the voltage starts to drop as soon as the cap starts to discharge, compared to a battery that maintains a fairly uniform voltage until it gets significantly discharged.

Ken, remember this was a discussion about a dedicated ignition power loop.

It's true that the voltage drop is steeper for a Li-Ion supercapacitor than for a LiFePo4 (LFP) battery; however, for a short cranking cycle of 3 seconds the voltage drop is less than 10%. The neat features of this kind of capacitor besides their reliability is their ability to deliver the stored energy instantly under any reasonable temperature condition. Once the engine fires, the capacitors will recharge in less than 10 seconds which partly negates the voltage drop characteristic. If the engine doesn't fire instantly, recharging is usually limited by the battery voltage (nominal voltage 12V or 12.8V for the LFP) which ensures ignition voltage in the range of 11-11.7 V, provided the battery is well charged. The combination of an LFP battery and Li-Ion capacitors appear to be particularly favourable.


There is also the option of installing supercapacitors in the main loop next to a LFP battery without a tailored ignition circuit. the larger capacitors compensate for the steeper voltage drop when discharging the battery by say 2C or more (which happens during cranking by the E/S), or when the battery's state of charge is less than say 50%, or during cold wheather.
https://www.bioennopower.com/pages/hybrid-supercapacitor-battery

Yes, a pack of supercapacitors in a blue can would be the proper packaging on a Norton, wouldn't it? :)

-Knut
 
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