Me thinks I may have a problem

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it looks like the timing side pin has had a LOT of pressure on it towards the side where the clip came out to do what it did. i would check the rods for straight as a start. a simple check is to insert a long rod from one rod to the other or the pins pushed together.
 
You've probably realized that your head gasket was leaking (pretty badly I'd say)
Can you explain to me what you see in the images that leads to the conclusion his head gasket was leaking. I genuinely have very little experience with motorcycles and am trying to learn.
 
Hi Wrecks, if you look at the first picture in Schilling’s post #42 you’ll be able to see the clean “witness” marks on the right jug ( left on the road) where the flame ring has been compressed and sealed the head. However on the other side the darker areas where either oil is being sucked in, or compression has been getting past it. Also you can see oil in the sockets of the Allen sockets on that side. ( that may not be from the head leak though).

Cheers,

cliffa.
 
Me thinks I may have a problem
 
Hi Wrecks, if you look at the first picture in Schilling’s post #42 you’ll be able to see the clean “witness” marks on the right jug ( left on the road) where the flame ring has been compressed and sealed the head. However on the other side the darker areas where either oil is being sucked in, or compression has been getting past it. Also you can see oil in the sockets of the Allen sockets on that side. ( that may not be from the head leak though).

Cheers,

cliffa.

Hi cliffa,

What would oil in the allen sockets be if not from the head gasket, just curious & want to learn :)
 
Hi cliffa,

What would oil in the allen sockets be if not from the head gasket, just curious & want to learn :)
I was assuming he meant it could have been spilled there after the head was removed or something like that.
 
I was assuming he meant it could have been spilled there after the head was removed or something like that.
Yep, exactly wrecks. As I wasn't here when the head was lifted I don't know how the fluid (which may not even be oil for all I know) got in there. Only Schilling will know that I guess. A look at the head gasket would probably offer more information but it's immaterial now.

Cheers,

cliffa.
 
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Click, as criminal as it sounds, it may even have been spilt whiskey. :eek::eek::eek:

You've been through a similar experience so know what softens the blow of finding the worst.
 
Click, as criminal as it sounds, it may even have been spilt whiskey. :eek::eek::eek:

You've been through a similar experience so know what softens the blow of finding the worst.

Noooooooooooooooooooo nothing worse than spilt whiskey
 
Schilling,
really sorry to see this. Looking at the pics you posted I fail to see how the circlip ended up in the sump. The piston doesn't look sufficiently damaged below the gudgeon (wrist) pin to have allowed a circlip past it. How deep is the groove in the bore? It's my suspicion that on reassembly after the honing work the circlip fell into the case where it eventually got beaten up by the crank, and for whatever reason a clip was never fitted to that side of the piston. (Anyway that's conjecture). The pin will then float and do it's worst, and as Dutch said the swarf will run along the centre of the pin and eat away at the other side and the more is wears the further it will travel.

You've probably realized that your head gasket was leaking (pretty badly I'd say) However in this case I think it saved your bacon as the extra lube being sucked into that bore stopped it from seizing completely.

Your initial photo also showed what look like bronze flakes on the tissue. Were they from this engine? If so I would not waste any more time, just start pulling the bottom end apart as well.

Cheers,

cliffa.

This. There is no question in my mind, (and I do a LOT of forensic mechanical investigation $$$$$) that that circlip was dropped in the sump (and not retrieved) by a doofus at assembly. There is no damage path on the piston big enough for it to have escaped.
 
Indeed. And something Ludwig eluded to several post ago.

I once dropped a circlip in the cases when working on a Triumph engine whilst in the frame.

I got my head in the frame loop and peered into the cases with a tiny mag light.

Then I dropped that in there too!

I did get them both out though. Eventually.

Doofus !!
 
Hi cliffa,

What would oil in the allen sockets be if not from the head gasket, just curious & want to learn :)
what you see in the heads of the allen bolts is just some overspray from me spraying lube on just about everything i could see
 
it looks like the timing side pin has had a LOT of pressure on it towards the side where the clip came out to do what it did. i would check the rods for straight as a start. a simple check is to insert a long rod from one rod to the other or the pins pushed together.
for sure will need new con rods, and assorted other bits in the lower end
 
My apologies for not updating this thread for the last couple of days (trying to get a house built in the hills around here has proven to be a time consuming challenge, not to mention the cold temps in my unheated garage..). I removed the barrels on saturday and the pins and pistons. the inboard right hand side circlip was for sure not there, (i'm sure bits of that circlip is what i found attached to the magnetic drain plug) the outboard right hand circlip was present as were the two for the left hand piston. the right side pin slid right out,,,no pressure needed at all. the left side pin was the opposite (the piston still rotated on the pin but compared the looseness of the right hand pin i would say the left side pin was tight, to be honest I'm not sure which is more correct,,,). The right hand con rod was sloppy loose on the crank,,,very sloppy loose,,,scary sloppy loose. the left side con rod not. I'll try to post a short video on the two con rods. I removed the rest of the engine from the frame yesterday and am in the process of coordinating the repair work now.
 
Indeed. And something Ludwig eluded to several post ago.

I once dropped a circlip in the cases when working on a Triumph engine whilst in the frame.

I got my head in the frame loop and peered into the cases with a tiny mag light.

Then I dropped that in there too!

I did get them both out though. Eventually.

Doofus !!
I can relate,,,,,
 
Hi Wrecks, if you look at the first picture in Schilling’s post #42 you’ll be able to see the clean “witness” marks on the right jug ( left on the road) where the flame ring has been compressed and sealed the head. However on the other side the darker areas where either oil is being sucked in, or compression has been getting past it. Also you can see oil in the sockets of the Allen sockets on that side. ( that may not be from the head leak though).

Cheers,

cliffa.
correct you are Sir. (although the fluid in the allen bolt heads is lube overspray)
 
When you say the con rod was loose do you mean side to side loose? Or up and down loose?
You can pull the con rod to one side then rock the con rod at the top to check for big end wear
 
When you say the con rod was loose do you mean side to side loose? Or up and down loose?
You can pull the con rod to one side then rock the con rod at the top to check for big end wear
I'm hoping I'll load the video the correct way to show what i referred to

well, i wasn't able to figure out how to upload the video,,,,,so, in answer to your query: holding the top of the con rod I am able to rock it side to side (top goes inboard and outboard) very easily and very much
 
That doesn't sound good.

Try pulling it directly up and down. There should be virtually no detectable movement this way, compare with the other side for a confirmation.

I guess its largely irrelevant though as your gonna tear it all down anyway
 
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