May have to amend my view of Shorai...

I have posted in the past re how much I liked my Shorai batt in my 850/Alton E-start and I recommended it heartily.

But I think it's fair to point out that over the last two days…I'm wondering:

THe batt is nearly 3 years old. It has been totally bulletproof and often sits for months at a time. But when starting (no charger), regardless of the time frame, it has always spun the engine instantly. Two days ago, I started the bike after nearly 5 months of no use (no charger). Again, the bike started instantly - no issue. Yesterday morning, when I hit the button, the starter was noticeably slower though the bike did start. I rode 200 miles yesterday and with plenty of off/on, the bike started flawlessly and acted normally.

This morning, the batt wouldn't even click - 5.8V according to the meter. There is no parasitic drain with the key turned off.

At this moment I am charging the batt and, when I start it again, I will check the alternator to be sure the charging is working OK. There is no indication of low charge HOWEVER, for the first time late in the day, the charge light illuminated at idle with the headlight on which never did that before. The light did not illuminate at 1200-1300 RPM.

At the moment I don't know for sure what's going on but will determine what's going on after troubleshooting...

Once I check the alternator, I will have a better idea of what may have happened. IF the charging is OK, I can't think of anything else that would cause the problem other than the battery failed. I don't know anything about the normal life of a Shorai.

Hi Mike.

I'm a big fan of LiFePo batteries, but had bad luck with one in a Commando. I called the company, and they told me that these batteries don't tolerate positive-ground systems very well. Mine had lasted I think maybe two years, and he told me he was quite surprised I'd gotten that much time out of it in a positive-ground system.

Bike's now wearing an Odyssey. I still use LiFePo batteries in a couple other bikes with great results (including a 20-pound weight loss - I kid you not - in a Guzzi Eldorado).

I think you have done well to get 3 years out of it when you say it sits months without use or charged and still starts, but looks like you let it sit once to often and it has finely died, no other battery would put up with months of no charge and still work properly, a battery should be recharged about every few weeks if not being used and 5.5 volts is pretty flat a battery with only 12 volts and under is classed as flat.

Ashley

BrianK said:

Hi Mike.
they told me that these batteries don't tolerate positive-ground systems very well.

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How in the world would a battery know if it's positive ground or negative ground? I'll say it, that's about the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. I stand to be flamed.

+1

AGM (not to be confused with Gel) batteries may not be as small & light as these Lithium types, but last a long time & can be left for months on end & still hold a full charge. I believe LiFePo types need to be charged at a higher voltage than lead acid types, around 14.8v. On my BMW R100RS I've fitted a higher output voltage regulator to suit the AGM Odyssey battery (14.2v) Perhaps you should look into this for the Shorai.

I called the company, and they told me that these batteries don't tolerate positive-ground systems very well.

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Whoever told you that is blowing smoke up your skirt. I say that with some authority, having been an electronics technician in the US Navy and an engineering tech with Lockheed Missile and Space Co.

It's the low voltage of our charging system that the Li batteries don't like. It is spelled out clearly on the Li battery manufacturer's websites- minimum output of the charging system is 13 volts at idle and never let the battery get below 12.8 volts. If you let the voltage get down, warranty is void.
12.8 volts is near the top of the range for our systems, the battery spends most of it's life below that.
It sounds as though the Shorai will survive foe awhile at the lower voltage, but eventually succumbs. The Shorai at least seems to give you some service life at the low voltage, the Ballistics curl up their toes real quick.
I think the Li batteries would havemuch better chance of making it to their advertised ten year life expectancy if installed in a modern bike with the typical modern powerful (even at idle) charging system.

After recharging the batt/starting the bike, the charging system works fine - 13.10 at idle (headlight OFF). The charge light that started illuminating late yesterday PM at idle turned out to be the brake light switch on the rear brake. It had essentially disintegrated in the rough roads - lots of cobblestones, etc - so the brake light was always on beginning sometime during the day. So at idle - around 900 RPM, the charging was too low.

I was well aware of the Shorai battery charge requirements and I suspect, as suggested, that although the charging system is in good shape, it did not provide the level of charge that the batt needed over the long term.

Re not charging batteries - I leave several vehicles in garages for months at a time with the batteries disconnected and no charger - I do not like unattended battery charging. The Shorai basically didn 't lose any voltage at all per a multimeter; the flooded batts may have lost some - I never checked - but they start the cars instantly. The Shorai seems to have gone from OK to bad in one night. I'll check for starting capability tomorrow AM. If it won't start/sounds weak, I'll buy a new batt. If it sounds normal, I'll have to look further into other possible issues though I checked for parasitic drains with batt switch off today and the meter showed "0" A.

I'll probably buy a new Shorai, simply because I set up everything in the batt compartment for the Alton relay/Shorai battery. If I put in a conventional batt, I'd have to revise the relay position/wiring and I see no reason to do that. And, actually my last regular batt didn't last any longer anyway…though they are a lot cheaper!

Don't the Alton kit come with a higher working altenator???

ashman said:

Don't the Alton kit come with a higher working altenator???

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Unfortunately not.

The Alton alternator works fine and will, as noted, provide adequate voltage at idle and beyond to easily meet the bikes normal needs with the headlight on and a standard flooded batt but with the higher voltage requirement of the Shorai, it never quite gets to a full charge. Actually, it's the regulator that restricts the voltage. Any alternator can provide far more voltage than what the regulator allows. I have a podtronics on the bike now but its voltage is within a few tenths of a volt of what the Lucas rectifier provided.

One would thing a regulator with an adjustable voltage range or one specifically designed for the Shorai would be a good thing…but perhaps that would then be excessive voltage for the lights, ignition, etc.

Perhaps the thing to do with the SHorai is to purchase the Shorai charger and use it periodically to ensure that the batt is fully charged at least occasionally. I might purchase the charger with a new batt. OR perhaps the charger would bring my current batt back to "like new."

comnoz said:

ashman said:

Don't the Alton kit come with a higher working altenator???

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Unfortunately not.

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You think they would seeing they run a diffrent altenator altogether.

Ashley

Actually there is probably nothing wrong with you battery except it has been discharged beyond the safety shutoff voltage built into the battery. Use of the Shorai charger will likely bring it back to what it was before.

The Alton alternator like the stock alternator is just enough to keep the battery above the shutdown voltage. The additional load from the brake light was all that was needed to load it beyond the point of no return.

Even with a higher voltage regulator you would have ended up in with the same result -just maybe a little farther down the road. The problem is not with the maximum voltage but it's the low amperage output at normal engine speeds that will get you if everything is not just right. Jim

comnoz said:

ashman said:

Don't the Alton kit come with a higher working altenator???

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Unfortunately not.

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Alton Ekit has a 150w alternator which is specially designed and made its thinner than Lucas type so that there is room for sprag clutch.

About ready to install my Alton E-Kit. In preparation, all bulbs, including headlamp have been converted to LED. Bike has been converted to negative ground, and a pair of Shorai batteries in parralell (LFX-14's).
Should do the trick with nary a worry.

JD

Hm, lets say one or 2 camped on a hill top but using the plug for 12v razor, as Norton hoped would attrack mods off of scooters, ran a Li battery below functional, could it be roll started as usual? The Li holds a charge well so camper might take a smaller back up Li. Excepting the E's ever wondered how tiny a battery you can get away with. A future up grade item when children poisoning lead batteries are banned might be replacing the mag rotor with coil unit and commutaor 12v feed or primary mounted pumping coils so rotor could make full volts even at ilde and varing loads of horn and brake and lights and gloves or camp hair drier.

comnoz said:

Actually there is probably nothing wrong with you battery except it has been discharged beyond the safety shutoff voltage built into the battery. Use of the Shorai charger will likely bring it back to what it was before.

The Alton alternator like the stock alternator is just enough to keep the battery above the shutdown voltage. The additional load from the brake light was all that was needed to load it beyond the point of no return.

Even with a higher voltage regulator you would have ended up in with the same result -just maybe a little farther down the road. The problem is not with the maximum voltage but it's the low amperage output at normal engine speeds that will get you if everything is not just right. Jim

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Jim, I think you have pretty much nailed it and I have also realized another "link" to this chain that I hadn't thought about.

About a year ago I began riding with the headlight on at all times. I didn't used to do that. It was just coincidence, it had nothing to do with the Alton/Shorai, it was just a "seems like a good thing to do." So on the 200 Mi trip a few days ago the headlight was on constantly and the brake light was as well for some portion - maybe all of it.

There is no doubt that PER Shorai, the charging system on the Commando, who's ever it is, is designed for flooded batts and will therefore not maintain the Shorai at full charge. I knew that going in but figured that the level of charge that it WOULD maintain would be fine. But I didn't really think about the amperage. The fact that the low charge light almost never illuminated also made me feel comfortable that the charge was sufficient. But I forgot about the fact that the charge light shows a discharge for a flooded batt, the which occurs at a much lower voltage than a discharge for a Shorai.

Re the Shorai charger... I have a B-day coming up in a couple of weeks and my wife wants to know what to buy me…

I think the reality is that with a Shorai/commonly available Norton charging systems, the battery will slowly - maybe VERY slowly - lose power unless it is charged externally by something that can provide the voltage it needs.

This added later: I went out this AM and the batt showed 12.9V, which is, of course more than a fully charged flooded batt (approx 12.6V) but 12.9V is only a 30% charge level on the Shorai. Shorai says that the batt needs a 60% charge to start the bike. So, as noted, without external charging with the appropriate charger, it appears to me that the Shorai will slowly decrease in charge over time, regardless of the load simply because the Norton charging system won't keep it fully charged. OTOH, I suspect that if it can maintain 70-80%, that would probably be fine. I am going to run my little batt tender on the Shorai all day to see what maximum voltage it can achieve in the batt.

The other consideration is that the main reason to use a Li battery has been the small size and weight for an advertised power capacity. The long advertised life (ten years) seems to be in doubt.
The battery capacity rating used by Shorai and others is misleading. People buy an lfx18 battery thinking it is an 18 amphour battery, when in reality it holds 6 amphours of available power, but that is only when fully charged to 14.2 volts, which will not happen with the bike's charging system. With the LFX 18 at 13 volts, you have a 1 or 2 amphour battery on board.
A friend in England uses two isolated LFX 18 batteries dead loss with a voltage minder. When the voltage in the first battery gets near the low cutoff point (12.8 volts) , he switches to the second battery. He keeps the batteries on the Shorai charger at home, so at least he is starting with a full 14.2 volts and 6 amphours per battery. This works for him for the short little rides he does, but I have to ask why bother? I guess he avoids fixing his charging system.
There is no longer much weight saving with two batteries and the cost is pretty extreme.

So in the Li battery we have a battery that doesn't really hold any more power for weight and size than the conventional if fully charged to 14.2v. It actually holds less power than conventional in real use on our bikes at the lower voltage these systems generally sit at.
So the size and weight advantage is out the window, in fact the advantage goes to the conventional battery because of the voltage issue on our bikes. I can see several disadvantages in using the Li batteries on our machines, (high cost, wrong voltage, low power storage), battery shut down to 5 v and dead bike when in traffic at night) but no real advantage, other than it is the latest thing?

Glen

Well, I don't think I agree re the issue re the practical side of the alleged amp/hour differences. My Shorai, for two years, spun the starter very rapidly and repeatedly with no issues at all, even after sitting for months at a time. I absolutely DO agree that the issue is the charging. No battery can be expected to do what it's supposed to do over a long period if it's not charged appropriately for the type of battery.

Admittedly, Shorai deserves some heat if they make a battery that needs to be at 14.2 when no common MCycle systems will provide that charge level because the chargers are expecting to see a flooded battery with a completely different set of requirements.

Marine battery chargers nowadays typically have adjustable settings for the type batts commonly used. More advanced chargers even allow the user to specifically dial in the bulk/float/absorbtion voltage, with all three being able to be dialed in to a 10th of a volt. Of course, even if that existed on an aftermarket regulator for a Norton, as Jim pointed out, the alternator might not be able to supply the current anyway unless there was NO additional voltage draw - lights, etc.

Here's the voltage that my Norton provides at RPM per testing a couple of years ago. With no load other than the ignition, it would appear that there is sufficient power to keep the Shorai fully charged. With an oem headlight on, there is not:
Charging (voltage at battery), headlight off:
Idle (900RPM) 12.6v
1500RPM 14.6
2000 RPM 15.0
3000 RPM 15.17 (doesn't get higher regardless of increased RPM)

Headlight on, low beam:
Idle 11.6
1500 11.9
2000 12.71
3000 14.12

Headlight on, high beam
Idle 11.38
1500 11.7
2000 12.2
3000 13.35