Light show...or not

Britfan60 · Sep 17, 2020

Went for a nice 70 mile ride. Upon return, do an inspection. Brake light doesn't come on from front brake lever. All else works.
Go into the headlight bucket to check connection to the switch. Its fine. Open it, put a little dialectric grease, close it up and adjust beam height. All fine.
Remove tail light. One of the copper tabs isnt making contact with the bulb. Clean tabs, inspect bulb, dielectric grease on the connections.
Had the ignition switch on for about 10 minutes. So....all of a sudden, the headlight doesn't work, the tail light doesn't work, the rear brake light works but the headlight comes on when I hit the rear brake. Dials and digital display doesnt light up. Digital display is functioning fine. Usually when the batter is low, it freezes up. Back on the tender overnight, still have the problem. Bike fires up immediately.
This is a real shit show. Any ideas? Asking before I check all my fuses. AND my Yuasa is on its fifth season and I do believe the voltage is a little lower than normal.

TonyA · Sep 17, 2020

I would say go back to where you began and check those connections that you made in the headlamp bucket. Do you have multimeter ? Turn off the bike and check switch contacts for the front brake with ohmmeter . Pull the taillamp bulb out and leave it out while testing. If the filaments have collapsed and crossed when the brake light come on 12V can get to the HL (they come on together). It sounds like a collapsed/crossed (not open) filament. I assume you have a standard filament bulb ?

Bernhard · Sep 18, 2020

Britfan60 said:
AND my Yuasa is on its fifth season and I do believe the voltage is a little lower than normal.

You are lucky to get that many years out of a lead/acid battery, suggest you charge it up first then put a load battery tester on it, I think you may be disappointed.
From your description you need to put a volt meter across the front and rear light connector to see if you are getting the full 12 volts.

kommando · Sep 18, 2020

Load test the battery, they can fail by going hi resistance internally, testing voltage alone does not tell you the battery is good, it needs to support the amp requirements too.

Deets55 · Sep 18, 2020

Taillight 1157 bulb? Is it installed correctly or did the plastic tab with the contacts shift in the bulb holder causing either incorrect contact or short. Not sure if your bike has CAN bus but something as innocent as that can cause havoc with electrical systems.

Britfan60 · Sep 18, 2020

TonyA said:
I would say go back to where you began and check those connections that you made in the headlamp bucket. Do you have multimeter ? Turn off the bike and check switch contacts for the front brake with ohmmeter . Pull the taillamp bulb out and leave it out while testing. If the filaments have collapsed and crossed when the brake light come on 12V can get to the HL (they come on together). It sounds like a collapsed/crossed (not open) filament. I assume you have a standard filament bulb ?

Tony....All worked well after reconnecting the headlamp connections and the brake switch in the headlamp shell. All went to hell after screwing with the tail light. Its pretty much an unmarked 1157. Silver base with elongated contacts. Not the brass colored with the round contacts. I did screw around with the bikes lamp connectors. They touched for a little bit because they are really crap quality. One looked like it wasn't making contact with the bulb so I bent it forward a bit. That just effed everything up. I can't see anything out of whack though. Time to start pulling fuses. Everything is clean and greased. Nothing got forced or snapped.
As for the battery.....the voltage reads adequate from the digital display, but yea......4 plus years. The bike fires right up, but....Gonna get a new one. I did charge it up. Readings are good.

Appreciate all the suggestions and replies. I still thing the front brake switch may have bit the dust but think all else is failing due to an old battery. Hope that is all it is.....Also, its been suggested the ECU needs to relearn lighting functions. Any truth to this. Never heard of ECU controlled lighting. That said......this is my first bike with an ECU. Thank God for my T140D

Stephen_Spencer · Sep 18, 2020

What is adequate voltage? Mine likes between 29-31V to start easily. It gets this via a Shorai lithium that lives on a tender. Suspect there are many associated problems related to battery choice and the requisite voltage necessary to start this grumpy old bitch! I’m gonna write to Shorai and ask them if they foresee any difficulty leaving their batteries permanently on a lithium specific tender. I’ll post the reply.

I note that my previous standard battery was also on a tender permanently. The voltage supplied dropped to around 26-27V. The bike would not start reliably.

TonyA · Sep 18, 2020

Maybe I missed something , 30 V ? Do you mean at the stator AC ?

Stephen_Spencer · Sep 18, 2020

Sorry Tony, brain fart!

She starts first push of the button between 12.9-13.1 V., viewed on the clocks (voltmeter).

When the original battery output dropped to 12.6-12.7V it appeared to struggle, which led to me changing battery to lithium.

Strangely my voltage still drops slightly when I rev the bike, not increases as you might expect.

On a side note, the bike has always idled beautifully at 1200 revs. Recently, once warm, it has started idling at 1100 revs and has stalling on occasion as a result. Any ideas Tony?

Steve

TonyA · Sep 18, 2020

Does it do this once in a great while ? Or happening always now ? If you blip the throttle does it come back to 1200 ? I would clean out the IAM cap and plunger to start with and make sure the hose aren't kinking . You have the SC ECU a 2014 0r 2015 year ? If so , get the SC Delta cable and CAN interface box also download the free SXCar software. This will help with lots of different things .

TonyA · Sep 18, 2020

Stephen_Spencer said:
Sorry Tony, brain fart!

She starts first push of the button between 12.9-13.1 V., viewed on the clocks (voltmeter).

When the original battery output dropped to 12.6-12.7V it appeared to struggle, which led to me changing battery to lithium.

Strangely my voltage still drops slightly when I rev the bike, not increases as you might expect.

On a side note, the bike has always idled beautifully at 1200 revs. Recently, once warm, it has started idling at 1100 revs and has stalling on occasion as a result. Any ideas Tony?

Steve

Stephen_Spencer · Sep 20, 2020

TonyA said:
Does it do this once in a great while ? Or happening always now ? If you blip the throttle does it come back to 1200 ? I would clean out the IAM cap and plunger to start with and make sure the hose aren't kinking . You have the SC ECU a 2014 0r 2015 year ? If so , get the SC Delta cable and CAN interface box also download the free SXCar software. This will help with lots of different things .

Thanks Tony,

It is happening routinely now when warm. The bike will tick over at 1100 rpm but occasionally stalls and leads me to continually blip the throttle at lights to offset this likelihood. When warm, it routinely settles back at 1100 when blipped. When starting from cold, before riding, it rests nicely at 1200 rpm.

I will try the IAM as you suggest. Embarrassingly, I am unsure which ECU I have fitted. The bike ran badly when first put on the road (2017 (2015 bike)). All the usual lumpy running, difficulty starting etc. Shortly thereafter I had the cats removed and the innards removed from the standard longs, by an exhaust professional. My dealer changed the ECU and remapped to the open pipe at the same time and bingo - she ran beautifully. SC original, changed to Omex I think. I’ll check with the Service Manager.

Thanks Tony, appreciate your assistance as ever.

Steve

TonyA · Sep 21, 2020

Stephen_Spencer said:
Thanks Tony,

It is happening routinely now when warm. The bike will tick over at 1100 rpm but occasionally stalls and leads me to continually blip the throttle at lights to offset this likelihood. When warm, it routinely settles back at 1100 when blipped. When starting from cold, before riding, it rests nicely at 1200 rpm.

I will try the IAM as you suggest. Embarrassingly, I am unsure which ECU I have fitted. The bike ran badly when first put on the road (2017 (2015 bike)). All the usual lumpy running, difficulty starting etc. Shortly thereafter I had the cats removed and the innards removed from the standard longs, by an exhaust professional. My dealer changed the ECU and remapped to the open pipe at the same time and bingo - she ran beautifully. SC original, changed to Omex I think. I’ll check with the Service Manager.

Thanks Tony, appreciate your assistance as ever.

Steve

Well , I'm not sure if I am giving assistance. If you are one of those who have had the SC to OMEX conversion then the software comes from dealer ? The beauty of having the software is you can track what throttle position you are at and try a new one and can go back etc.. This can be done with a voltmeter but more difficult. Your position may have changed a bit ? Do you have a dual seat or single seat , no matter just pull the seat and look. Silver is OMEX , black is SC. You can also count turns on the set screw , it (throttle) may need to be opened say 1/8th turn ? Like I've told others , I wish I was your neighbor !

Stephen_Spencer · Sep 21, 2020

That’s secretly nothing to do with the bikes, and everything to do with the fact that I live in Aus right!? It’s not all beutiful beaches and fluffy white clouds you know! We’ve got sharks!

I’ll pul the seat and have a look.

Thanks Tony.

Britfan60 · Oct 1, 2020

Finally got my new battery. Stayed with the Yuasa. Not once did I ever experience a non start with the lead acid. Only digital display freeze ups when left of a tender. Nobody local had any in stock so I went through a bike supply that sells through Amazon.

Anyway, no avail. Thought this would be easy. Hooked up battery....by the way....the flashing fuel light patch was hooked up correctly and still never worked. Thinking the wire is broken in the insulation.
"squirrel".....lights still do not work. High beam switch on and headlight switch on....the headlight and tail light come on by activating the rear brake light switch. Nothing comes on by itself, front brake brake light switch still not working. Both filaments are good. All the fuses are good.

Battery on a tender, not charging. 24 hours and the red led is still flashing. All wired put back properly. Turn ignition on, quickly climbs from 10 something to 12.8 or 12.9V
Fires up immediately, idles fine. At idle 14.8V. Drops to 14.1 when rev to about 4k.

Thought this was going to be easy.

Britfan60 · Oct 1, 2020

Deets55 said:
Taillight 1157 bulb? Is it installed correctly or did the plastic tab with the contacts shift in the bulb holder causing either incorrect contact or short. Not sure if your bike has CAN bus but something as innocent as that can cause havoc with electrical systems.

I believe you are right. I think the tabs may have touched because they did seem to move about. They are very flimsy. That IS when the trouble started. Every thing was fine after closing up the headlight bucket. But with all the fiddling and new battery, not getting them back on.

Think I can get a new tail light assembly from the factory?

MxMartin · Oct 1, 2020

You definitely have a cross wire in a block somewhere. If foot brake is powering the head/tail lights then all the current is going through that brake switch, not good as it is probably only rated a little above the 21W of the bulb. The battery tender lead should go directly to battery so that might point you to the block with crossed wires.

Stephen_Spencer · Oct 1, 2020

TonyA said:
Well , I'm not sure if I am giving assistance. If you are one of those who have had the SC to OMEX conversion then the software comes from dealer ? The beauty of having the software is you can track what throttle position you are at and try a new one and can go back etc.. This can be done with a voltmeter but more difficult. Your position may have changed a bit ? Do you have a dual seat or single seat , no matter just pull the seat and look. Silver is OMEX , black is SC. You can also count turns on the set screw , it (throttle) may need to be opened say 1/8th turn ? Like I've told others , I wish I was your neighbor !

Hey Tony,

Apologies for the delay, had a few bike related things on the go including the Norton‘s snapped gear change rod and problems with my KTM dealer also - dealer service, overfilled the engine oil by 50mm above the upper dipstick mark!!! Rhymes with ‘clucking bell’!

Pulled the seat and cowl, as we suspected it is the OMEX ECU so no software for me

! I wanted to ride again just to check the symptoms one more time - that was the ride the gear change rod broke on. The bike is starting and idling from cold with no problem, at spot on 1200 rpm. When the bike is fully warmed during the ride the revs drop to 1100 when idling at the lights etc. It does tick over at 1100 but is prone to stalling.

As soon as I receive a new gear change rod the bike is going in for service, so will have access to dealer software/expertise. Not sure to which set screw you are referring? I think I’ll leave any adjustment to the dealer for now as the bike is still rideable. Any idea what the random loose electrical connection is for?

Thanks for your help Tony, much appreciated.

Steve

Panetone · Oct 2, 2020

Hello,
the plug is for OBD in Europe, with the right cable you can connect to the ECU.

TonyA · Oct 2, 2020

Yes , That is the OBD2 connector. This is what I (we) use to connect to the SC ECU. Since you have had the SC to OMEX conversion and I see you have a dual seat it may not work. Norton called the OBD2 connector redundant after the conversion . The conversion bracket was only designed for the dual seat and never was produced for the single seat bikes . I think your OMEX probably has a 9 pin D-sub connector on the back side for communications ? On the newest OMEX bikes they went back to using OBD2 (Stratos confirmed this) . The adjustment screw is the throttle stop screw I was referring to earlier and I suggested opening the flaps about 1/8th turn max.

Light show...or not

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